What makes a Blue Water Navy?

[gf0012-aust]

i think a blue water navy is a navy that can operate in a sustainable way in the high seas at long distances and most blue water navy are a battle group

Its got little to do with having a battlegroup. Its about a sustainable force that is able to dictate presence and sustain that presence in contested and complex circumstances.

you don't need a battlegroup to do that. In fact most of the bluewater capability in the cold war was due to the construct of Task Forces.

eg atypically the USN had an attack carrier taskforce paired off with an ASW carrier led task force, these were the typical fighting pair. - depending on the ocean, they had 2 other task forces that could be within "nn" days sailing to support and enhance the force.

carrier battlegroups evolved into task forces and the surface action groups became supporting task forces.

 

[ThePuss]

A fancy word for "re-supply"?

Yes, but No. It's not fancy but a very old and still widely used term in navy's with heritage stemming from the RN.

In the RAN until around 15 years or so ago we had a rate within the Supply department called Victualers who's job was to control and distribute all food and clothing ( A task know undertaken by the Cooks for food and Stores Naval for the Clothing).

The pipe "Cafe party muster wharf, IN Vitals" can still be heard on RAN ship's any morning when the milk and bread truck rocks up).

 

[advill]

Victualling = provisions supply i.e. food and water.

 

[Feanor]

Yes, but No. It's not fancy but a very old and still widely used term in navy's with heritage stemming from the RN.

In the RAN until around 15 years or so ago we had a rate within the Supply department called Victualers who's job was to control and distribute all food and clothing ( A task know undertaken by the Cooks for food and Stores Naval for the Clothing).

The pipe "Cafe party muster wharf, IN Vitals" can still be heard on RAN ship's any morning when the milk and bread truck rocks up).

For practical purposes it's resupply of stuffs essential for the personnel of the ship? So it wouldn't include ammunition? I really just need a working definition.

 

[gf0012-aust]

For practical purposes it's resupply of stuffs essential for the personnel of the ship? So it wouldn't include ammunition? I really just need a working definition.

RAS includes food (victuals), fuel, ammunition, spare parts.anything essential.to maintain operational tempo.

 

[Feanor]

So it includes everything vital to continued operations, short of repairs to the ship itself?

 

[gf0012-aust]

So it includes everything vital to continued operations, short of repairs to the ship itself?

Yes. Maritime engines can also be repaired at sea (within reason - unless its catastrophic and the build requires docking.

I worked on a project where we used maritime diesels for a land based project., that was because we could undertake a lot more basic or minor service on site and there was a need to cut down on offsite maint.

 

[ManilaBoy]

So it includes everything vital to continued operations, short of repairs to the ship itself?

Sorry for the OT but I thought 1 LINERS are not allowed in this forum which resulted in the deletion of more than 25% of my total post ... I'm confused!

 

[lopez]

Sorry for the OT but I thought 1 LINERS are not allowed in this forum which resulted in the deletion of more than 25% of my total post ... I'm confused!

pointless one liners like "I always new that ship would be great" etc etc... should be deleted but why would the mods delete a post that adds to a thread? even if it only takes up one line.

 

[advill]

Blue-Water Navy

The acceptable definition of a Blue-Water Navy is "A martime force capable of operating across the deep waters of open oceans. There is a requirement that this kind of Navy must have the ability to exercise control of all ships under its command, at wide expanse of waters e.g. all the Oceans : Atlantic, Indian, Pacific & Seas such as South China Sea etc. etc. At one time the Royal Navy had this capability. At the moment it is the US Navy that is a true Blue Water Navy. Others like China, perhaps India are trying to be one. There are some some Brown (Coastal) & Green (Regional) Navies that have ambitions to upgrade, and hopefully be "Blue-Water" Navies. They can hope, but unless their countries have the $$$$$ and valid ambition/reasons (to be a Global Sea Power), there is very little likehood of success. Experienced Navy Guys (Ole Salts & Ancient Mariners) would just have a good laugh at the "high sounding" description some Navies categorised themselves. Yo! Ho! Ho! on a bottle of Rum ; )

 

[Bonza]

Sorry for the OT but I thought 1 LINERS are not allowed in this forum which resulted in the deletion of more than 25% of my total post ... I'm confused!

Are you serious? Why are you so worried about your post count? Stop griping about it, for god's sake... and if you want to know why Feanor doesn't get pulled up for the occasional one liner, go look at his post history. See the immense amount of content he's contributed to the forums? Same thing with some other posters around here, you'll see a one liner here or there, you won't see post histories composed entirely of them, which is why you were pulled into line in the first place.

Why you felt the need to dig up a post that's eight months old in order to find an example of a one liner so you could start complaining about your deleted posts is beyond me. Your post count is really, really not that important - what's important is your post content. As I said, go and look at Feanor's post content for an example of why it doesn't matter from time to time if he posts a one liner.

 

[StevoJH]

The acceptable definition of a Blue-Water Navy is "A martime force capable of operating across the deep waters of open oceans.

There is a requirement that this kind of Navy must have the ability to exercise control of all ships under its command, at wide expanse of waters e.g. all the Oceans : Atlantic, Indian, Pacific & Seas such as South China Sea etc. etc.

At one time the Royal Navy had this capability. At the moment it is the US Navy that is a true Blue Water Navy. Others like China, perhaps India are trying to be one.

There are some some Brown (Coastal) & Green (Regional) Navies that have ambitions to upgrade, and hopefully be "Blue-Water" Navies.

They can hope, but unless their countries have the $$$$$ and valid ambition/reasons (to be a Global Sea Power), there is very little likehood of success.

Experienced Navy Guys (Ole Salts & Ancient Mariners) would just have a good laugh at the "high sounding" description some Navies categorised themselves. Yo! Ho! Ho! on a bottle of Rum ; )

Hi advill,

I just broke your post down into some paragraphs for you to make it easier to read.

I think i'll go through your post one point at a time, but firstly, were you quoting a definiation of a blue water navy or making it up based on your understanding? I am asking this because you started out with quotation marks and then never closed them.

With regards to the Royal Navy, they retain the ability globaly and have continued to do so in recent years, with task forces sent "east of suez" on multiple occasions in the last several years, including this year. One operational "east of suez" operation in recent years was the RN's involvement in the Invasion of the Al Faw peninsula in Iraq in 2003 by 3 Commando Brigade.

At the moment India could possibly be stated to have a limited blue water navy, however they (and china) generally do not send full task forces outside their own regional area.

Which Brown and Green water navies do you believe have ambitions to upgrade to blue water navies? What do you base this opinion on and why do you think they will/will not succeed.

As for your last sentence, its probably not needed.

 

[advill]

Dear Lt-Col StevoJH, The quotation in the first part of my msg was taken from a Navy book. As for your other comments, I will not debate with an Army guy on maritime matters. BTW, most Navy guys have a sense of humour, and I am sori if you take offence in my last sentence. Cheers - "Up the Navy" whichever country and whatever hopes they have to be "Blue-Water"

Hi advill,

I just broke your post down into some paragraphs for you to make it easier to read.

I think i'll go through your post one point at a time, but firstly, were you quoting a definiation of a blue water navy or making it up based on your understanding? I am asking this because you started out with quotation marks and then never closed them.

With regards to the Royal Navy, they retain the ability globaly and have continued to do so in recent years, with task forces sent "east of suez" on multiple occasions in the last several years, including this year. One operational "east of suez" operation in recent years was the RN's involvement in the Invasion of the Al Faw peninsula in Iraq in 2003 by 3 Commando Brigade.

At the moment India could possibly be stated to have a limited blue water navy, however they (and china) generally do not send full task forces outside their own regional area.

Which Brown and Green water navies do you believe have ambitions to upgrade to blue water navies? What do you base this opinion on and why do you think they will/will not succeed.

As for your last sentence, its probably not needed.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The acceptable definition of a Blue-Water Navy is "A martime force capable of operating across the deep waters of open oceans. There is a requirement that this kind of Navy must have the ability to exercise control of all ships under its command, at wide expanse of waters e.g. all the Oceans : Atlantic, Indian, Pacific & Seas such as South China Sea etc. etc. At one time the Royal Navy had this capability. At the moment it is the US Navy that is a true Blue Water Navy. Others like China, perhaps India are trying to be one. There are some some Brown (Coastal) & Green (Regional) Navies that have ambitions to upgrade, and hopefully be "Blue-Water" Navies. They can hope, but unless their countries have the $$$$$ and valid ambition/reasons (to be a Global Sea Power), there is very little likehood of success. Experienced Navy Guys (Ole Salts & Ancient Mariners) would just have a good laugh at the "high sounding" description some Navies categorised themselves. Yo! Ho! Ho! on a bottle of Rum ; )

Please provide the citation as to what book this has come from as its not the military definition of blue, green or brown water force constructs.

I suspect that its either dated or a private reference book. eg the Brown water definition used 50 years ago still applies and is used today - its not whats been quoted in your citation.

experienced navy guys would question those definitions as provided.

you should be aware that the old definition of blue water capability changed around about 1989, as it stands the above definition also does not reflect contemp thought (ie and contemp thought is 20+ years old)

 

[advill]

Hi Gf0012, my guess is you are a relatively "NEW" Navy guy educated with new naval terms, definitions etc. etc. Anyway, I am an "OIe Salt" from the OLD NAVY. But I am a Veteran and was actively involved in the "silent war" i.e. "Konfrontasi" (1962-1966), serving on board warships under the overall command of RN Far East Fleet. Also in the front-lines in Borneo supporting the 42 RM Cdo (Tawau Assault Group Unit). Awarded UK GSM (Borneo), PPA & PJM (Malaysia) & Defence Medal (Singapore) for my services as a Mobilised Naval Reserve Officer during the Borneo campaign. Suggest you have some consideration for experienced Old Salts, as much as we respect the modern Naval Officers & men for their high-tech expertise. I still stand by what I said & my definition of "Blue Water Navy". As brothers of the sea (Older & Younger), we can agree to disagree in this instance, & not prolong the discussion unecessarily.

Please provide the citation as to what book this has come from as its not the military definition of blue, green or brown water force constructs.

I suspect that its either dated or a private reference book. eg the Brown water definition used 50 years ago still applies and is used today - its not whats been quoted in your citation.

experienced navy guys would question those definitions as provided.

you should be aware that the old definition of blue water capability changed around about 1989, as it stands the above definition also does not reflect contemp thought (ie and contemp thought is 20+ years old)

 

[StevoJH]

Dear Lt-Col StevoJH, The quotation in the first part of my msg was taken from a Navy book. As for your other comments, I will not debate with an Army guy on maritime matters. BTW, most Navy guys have a sense of humour, and I am sori if you take offence in my last sentence. Cheers - "Up the Navy" whichever country and whatever hopes they have to be "Blue-Water"

The Lt Col. title is based on the number of posts I have on this forum, not on any military rank.

You don't have an answer to my questions?

 

[advill]

Tks StevoJH. Sori for mistakenly thinking you were a Lt-Col & also with gf0012 for assuming that he was a General (or is it Admiral?). If I can be allowed a "rank" for my postings, I would choose "Disabled Seaman 5th Class" (only joking). Anyway nice to assume u are/were in the military or a military enthusiast, otherwise you will not be knowledegable in military affairs. BTW, I forgot to add that in the Ole Navy, I served with Australian Naval Officers, both of the same rank & senior ones too. I had great respect for the late Adm Anthony Synott, OA (former Chief of the Australian Defence Forces) & the late Commodore Dollard. I salute both these professional Senior Officers who were Chiefs of Naval Staff (CNS) of the Royal Malaysian Navy during the period of the silent war: "Konfrontasi" (1960s). Regards.

The Lt Col. title is based on the number of posts I have on this forum, not on any military rank.

You don't have an answer to my questions?

 

[Preceptor]

Hi Gf0012, my guess is you are a relatively "NEW" Navy guy educated with new naval terms, definitions etc. etc. Anyway, I am an "OIe Salt" from the OLD NAVY. But I am a Veteran and was actively involved in the "silent war" i.e. "Konfrontasi" (1962-1966), serving on board warships under the overall command of RN Far East Fleet. Also in the front-lines in Borneo supporting the 42 RM Cdo (Tawau Assault Group Unit). Awarded UK GSM (Borneo), PPA & PJM (Malaysia) & Defence Medal (Singapore) for my services as a Mobilised Naval Reserve Officer during the Borneo campaign. Suggest you have some consideration for experienced Old Salts, as much as we respect the modern Naval Officers & men for their high-tech expertise. I still stand by what I said & my definition of "Blue Water Navy". As brothers of the sea (Older & Younger), we can agree to disagree in this instance, & not prolong the discussion unecessarily.

As might be expected, given both internet forums and Defencetalk's emphasis on defence matters, we like to confirm when people make claims or statements about prior service. Please contact me at [email protected] or contact another member of the Mod or Admin teams so that we might vet your information. Thank you for your attention in this matter.
-Preceptor

 

[advill]

WILCO Will comply Preceptor Black Hat. Email being sent to you now. Advill

 

[advill]

Preceptor, I have tried to email you the required details at the address: [email protected] that you have given me. I could not get thru' to you. Pl send/email contact address again ASAP for the authentication you requested. It will come from two Retired RMN Admirals/ Navy Chiefs, & one retired SNVF Commander. VMT, advill.