War Against ISIS

[STURM]

It also doesn't help that the turks are using M60 tank variants.

What strikes me as odd is why the other vehicles still stayed put after an M-60 was hit. Granted, there were no buildings or reverse slopes they could
use for cover but one would think that the first reaction of the other vehicles would have been to start moving or laying down smoke after the first M-60 was hit. Judging from the time it took for the missiles to hit their targets; they must have been fired from at least nearly a km away. It's hard to judge the distance as the image we got was probably zoomed. Also, it's interesting to speculate as the type of missile that was use. Metis, Kornet or one of the TOWs that were apparently supplied by a Middle Eastern benefactor.

 

[Waylander]

IMHO too long of a flight time for Metis, Sagger or Milan. And too smokey for TOW.

So probably Konkurs?

I would also have expected some smoke and some wiggling movement. But I also have no idea if I would have reacted according to training once my buddys got blown up for real for the first time.

 

[FightForFreedom]

Let them fight their own wars

Our government needs to stay out of this one. Let the Middle East fix itself this time.

 

[Feanor]

IMHO too long of a flight time for Metis, Sagger or Milan. And too smokey for TOW.

So probably Konkurs?

I would also have expected some smoke and some wiggling movement. But I also have no idea if I would have reacted according to training once my buddys got blown up for real for the first time.

Kornet? Those have been steadily leaking into both rebel and ISIS hands from Syria and Turkey.

 

[Waylander]

I thought about that too, but is Kornet that smokey? It is much more modern and I assumed therefore it is less smokey. But I haven't had the time so far to hunt for videos of Kornet in flight.

 

[Feanor]

I thought about that too, but is Kornet that smokey? It is much more modern and I assumed therefore it is less smokey. But I haven't had the time so far to hunt for videos of Kornet in flight.

Russian sources are claiming it's Kornet. I'm no expert on smokiness, so I can't say anything more then that.

 

[Waylander]

Kornet would be bad news for the Turks.
Sabras and Leopard IIA4s might shrug of frontal Konkurs hits but I have severe doubts about their ability to withstand Kornets even frontally.

 

[Feanor]

Kornet would be bad news for the Turks.
Sabras and Leopard IIA4s might shrug of frontal Konkurs hits but I have severe doubts about their ability to withstand Kornets even frontally.

They have partially themselves to blame. They bought Kornet missiles in Russia, and then apparently supplied them to the rebels in Syria. Granted at least some of the Kornet, and their Iranian clones, come from SAA arsenals, but it's a stunning piece of karma

 

[Waylander]

I have no pity with them, too. They maneuvered themselves into this ugly corner.

 

[Feanor]

I have no pity with them, too. They maneuvered themselves into this ugly corner.

Is it a corner? They've got their very own zone of influence in Syria, and neither the Kurds nor ISIS can fight a conventional battle against the Turkish Army and win. Turkish relations with Russia, Iran, and even Assad, have improved, Turkey is still part of the US coalition, and they seem to have at least some sort of green light to deal with their true enemy, the Kurds. It mostly looks like Erdogan succeeded. I mean the bomber shoot down put him in the worst position possibly, but rapidly acquiescing to Putin's demands (public apology, trial for the pilot, resignation of "people who gave the order) have once again put him in the position where he can barter between the Russian coalition and the US one, to get the best deal.

 

[STURM]

Our government needs to stay out of this one. Let the Middle East fix itself this time.

Outsiders - for their own self interests - have been meddling in the Middle East for a very long time; this will not change anytime soon. If outsiders really want to disengage then they should stop selling arms to any country in the region that's at war and they should also withdraw from all the military bases they have in the region. Just as important, they should allow the locals to choose [should they decide they want to] the leaders they want; irrespective of whether the country is an old ally like Saudi Arabia or Syria.

 

[Think_Tank]

Middle-east Conflict

Our government needs to stay out of this one. Let the Middle East fix itself this time.

You need to know US is a world power and when ever national interest and allies security are at stake US presence is always a visible factor. Middle-east can never fixed itself especially after the arab spring. What the world are seeing now in middle-east regional conflict with participation of world powers including terrorist groups is a matter of regional dominance. Between Russia and US/NATO assertion of influence in the region with almost infinite natural oil reserves where majority of the world oil supply emanates, who dominate the region achieved economic and military superiority. But what I am worried about the middle-east conflict is when the doomsday clock stop ticking.

 

[STURM]

Middle-east can never fixed itself especially after the arab spring.

The region can never fix itself as long as outside powers continue to meddle and as long as the locals are unable to make decisions for themselves; as opposed to decisions made for them by leaders who were never elected but who are courted and supported by outside powers.

What the world are seeing now in middle-east regional conflict with participation of world powers including terrorist groups is a matter of regional dominance.

World powers have always been involved in all Middle Eastern conflicts fought; either directly or indirectly and terrorists groups like the Abu Nidal Group, Popular Front For The Liberation of Palestine - General Command, etc [none as effective or successful as IS no doubt]; have long been players in various conflicts in the region

 

[Waylander]

Is it a corner? They've got their very own zone of influence in Syria, and neither the Kurds nor ISIS can fight a conventional battle against the Turkish Army and win. Turkish relations with Russia, Iran, and even Assad, have improved, Turkey is still part of the US coalition, and they seem to have at least some sort of green light to deal with their true enemy, the Kurds. It mostly looks like Erdogan succeeded. I mean the bomber shoot down put him in the worst position possibly, but rapidly acquiescing to Putin's demands (public apology, trial for the pilot, resignation of "people who gave the order) have once again put him in the position where he can barter between the Russian coalition and the US one, to get the best deal.

So far they don't even succeded in putting down the kurdish rebels in their own country and they pretty much took of the gloves for some time now.

Now they jumped into the bloodpool that is Syria with Daesh on the one side, lots of angry Kurds on the other and a weary Assad with his Iranian and Russian backers on the sideline ready to ram a knife into their back should the need arise.

Yeah, in the short run they may have saved their bazhi bazouk pet rebels from annhilation and stopped the kurdish drive to connect their enclaves.

But now they have to stay in and face bloody day after bloody day or retreat after some time and see their gains getting washed away by the everchanging tides of the civil war.

And even if Daesh as a state like actor is finished in some time, lots of angry jihady warriors will wash back over the turkish border creating a huge security and terror problem on top of the current mess that is the turkish security situation. And all that in a country where tourism is a premier industry and the economic growth is in large parts fueled by foreign investors which won't like a shaky security situation.

Just like Putin Erdogan seems to aim for short sighted gains without fully considering the aftereffects.

 

[Mig-29M2]

IMHO too long of a flight time for Metis, Sagger or Milan. And too smokey for TOW.

So probably Konkurs?

I would also have expected some smoke and some wiggling movement. But I also have no idea if I would have reacted according to training once my buddys got blown up for real for the first time.

That's a Kornet, not Konkurs. Konkurs has a whistling sound during the launch, unlike the Kornet. Both smoke.

 

[Mig-29M2]

Here's another Kornet hit on a Turkish M60T Sabra from today.

Notice the crew of the IFV parked to the right getting out towards the end of the video.

Video: ISIS knocks-out third Turkish M60T Sabra tank for the week | Echelon-Defense

 

[Toblerone]

You want to let sunni tribesmen decide for themselves for example? And not meddle? You will have to meddle sooner or later when they become a safe haven for radical islamist terrorism. If they are suppressed by a regime then you will have to meddle when it gets toppled.

There is no straightforward solution because of the sly way the borders in the Middle East have been drawn by ye olde superpowers. These paper countries contain a hodgepodge of people with no strong majority. In fact, in many of these ME counties there is a ruling minority!

If a country X isn't an interchangeable term with the nation X, then it's all about the minorities, the demographics, outside influences, parliaments divided by ethnic identities, this city is a traditional sunni stronghold, that city has an important shia temple, the coast is filled with rich alawites, sectarian this, moderate that, radical whatever, yezedis eradicated ... a bomb went off and killed 45 people in a shia temple, the kurds decided to withdraw from the parliament, iranian proxies this and that, foreign fighters streaming in by the tens of thousands ... and muffled voices crying out in agony under the rubble

Meanwhile, the US keep pushing for some kind of a ceasefire as the rebels/jihadis are suffering defeats in the Aleppo, eastern ghouta, Hama and Latakia fronts.

EDIT:

https://youtu.be/oC3XzU42_QI

I'm sorry I posted the same video as the post above this.

 

[Feanor]

You want to let sunni tribesmen decide for themselves for example? And not meddle? You will have to meddle sooner or later when they become a safe haven for radical islamist terrorism. If they are suppressed by a regime then you will have to meddle when it gets toppled.

There is no straightforward solution because of the sly way the borders in the Middle East have been drawn by ye olde superpowers. These paper countries contain a hodgepodge of people with no strong majority. In fact, in many of these ME counties there is a ruling minority!

If a country X isn't an interchangeable term with the nation X, then it's all about the minorities, the demographics, outside influences, parliaments divided by ethnic identities, this city is a traditional sunni stronghold, that city has an important shia temple, the coast is filled with rich alawites, sectarian this, moderate that, radical whatever, yezedis eradicated ... a bomb went off and killed 45 people in a shia temple, the kurds decided to withdraw from the parliament, iranian proxies this and that, foreign fighters streaming in by the tens of thousands ... and muffled voices crying out in agony under the rubble

Meanwhile, the US keep pushing for some kind of a ceasefire as the rebels/jihadis are suffering defeats in the Aleppo, eastern ghouta, Hama and Latakia fronts.

EDIT:

https://youtu.be/oC3XzU42_QI

Not meddling means letting them fight it out and carve out their own borders like Europe did for ~1000 years following the fall of the Roman Empire. It won't be pretty but it will limit western exposure, and with strict travel restrictions, it could make it very hard for terrorists to go to the west. On the downside this means letting a lot of people die, for bad reasons.

 

[Feanor]

So far they don't even succeded in putting down the kurdish rebels in their own country and they pretty much took of the gloves for some time now.

Now they jumped into the bloodpool that is Syria with Daesh on the one side, lots of angry Kurds on the other and a weary Assad with his Iranian and Russian backers on the sideline ready to ram a knife into their back should the need arise.

Yeah, in the short run they may have saved their bazhi bazouk pet rebels from annhilation and stopped the kurdish drive to connect their enclaves.

But now they have to stay in and face bloody day after bloody day or retreat after some time and see their gains getting washed away by the everchanging tides of the civil war.

And even if Daesh as a state like actor is finished in some time, lots of angry jihady warriors will wash back over the turkish border creating a huge security and terror problem on top of the current mess that is the turkish security situation. And all that in a country where tourism is a premier industry and the economic growth is in large parts fueled by foreign investors which won't like a shaky security situation.

Just like Putin Erdogan seems to aim for short sighted gains without fully considering the aftereffects.

True but his other option was not going into Syria, and thus watching Syrian Kurdistan become a base for the rebels inside Turkey to keep attacking the Turkish military. Winning a COIN war is nearly impossible when the insurgents have a safe base just across a porous border. Erdogan is persistently trying to make nice with Iraqi Kurdistan and seeing that he didn't really have that option with Syria, make it possible for him to move directly against the Syrian Kurds should they become a real problem.

EDIT: I mean this is starting to approach Saudi levels of incompetence. There goes another one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC3XzU42_QI

 

[Toblerone]

Three of us posting the same video of a turkish tank cooking?

Also, it is unfair to compare this to saudi incompetence. You would only be justified to say that if ISIS were actually raiding turkish towns. Bonus points if the USA condemned the attacks and agreed among themselves that the war should not threaten Syria's neighbours.

This is in reference to this comedy show:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/joint-statement-on-yemen--2


EDIT: The US and Russia agreed on a nationwide cessation of hostilities

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...7ca320-75ff-11e6-9781-49e591781754_story.html