Varyag back in Service?

[navy]

The support ship is/was nameless, hull # ENS-357. Soviet designation was Pr. 305 elektrostantsiye sudno ("ship supplying steam & electricity"); the NATO reporting name was "Tomba". Four were built in Poland at the same time the Kievs were building; three decom'ed in 1991 and the ENS-357 this spring. I'll be darned if I can find a picture but she looked like a typical 5000ton freighter; except she had a second funnel identical to the amidships one on the poop deck (it looked strange) and a "mack" mast on the foc'sle. In addition to her own powerplant; she had three extra diesels hooked up to generators and an electric boiler. She could provide an alongside carrier with direct electricity or steam.

The Kievs and Kuznetzov have rube goldberg engine rooms with eight boilers, four turbines, crosstied condensers, etc. It's just a doubled arrangement of the Moskva's propulsion layout, which makes no sense considering the problems they had with those two ships. All had engine fires; the last Kiev (Gorshkov) had fires in 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1996. The Kuznetzov has had no fires but lots of breakdowns. Here's a picture of the Moskva's engine room on fire. PHOTO: http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/images/russia/moskva-2.jpg

The two Kuznetzovs were never designed to be nuclear. You aren't off base though; the Soviets had two planned CVN classes: the Orel (about 80,000tons, planned for the late 1970s but cancelled to fund the Kievs) and the Ulyanovsk (76,000tons, laid down in 1988; she was about 90 days from being launched when the Nov '91 coup happened; the shipyard workers struck and never resumed work after the coup.) The hull was scrapped in 1994. Here's a pic of Ulyanovsk: PHOTO: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/ulyanovsk-line.gif

Here's the navalized MiG-23 Flogger, planned for the Orel. PHOTO: http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=4485

Here's the Su-33, planned attack jet for the Kuznetzovs and Ulyanovsks. (it was cancelled, Kuz uses navalized Frogfoots) PHOTO: http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=4486

Here's the Beriev P-40, planned ASW jet for Ulyanovsk. PHOTO: http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=4078

I know this is a little off topic, but i was wondering if the rumors that i have heard that have said that the russian federation said that they are working on a completly new design for two large fleet carrier size "aviation crusiers" one for the baltic sea fleet and one for the pacific fleet. The statement said that construction would begin in 2010 and be over around 2016. acording to some simple math i did, this is particullarily how long it would have taken them to build the UL'Yanovsk CVN. Also, with the Nikolayev ship yard now on Ukranian turf, would the Ukranians lease it to the russians or would the russians have to modify one of their other fleet bases in order to build these carriers, for example the baltic fleet base, which is where they built the Kiev's.

 

[Big-E]

I know this is a little off topic, but i was wondering if the rumors that i have heard that have said that the russian federation said that they are working on a completly new design for two large fleet carrier size "aviation crusiers" one for the baltic sea fleet and one for the pacific fleet. The statement said that construction would begin in 2010 and be over around 2016. acording to some simple math i did, this is particullarily how long it would have taken them to build the UL'Yanovsk CVN. Also, with the Nikolayev ship yard now on Ukranian turf, would the Ukranians lease it to the russians or would the russians have to modify one of their other fleet bases in order to build these carriers, for example the baltic fleet base, which is where they built the Kiev's.

I wouldn't doubt them saying it as they have proposed some pretty lofty goals in the past and as it turns into today we find they go unrealized. They don't have the budget to get these new builds done on time. They spend all their money trying to operate obsolete Soviet era ships when they need to scrap them all and restructure the fleet. They have so many hulls that get started but end up running out of funding that by the time their completed their ready for the scrap yard.

 

[navy]

The airframes of PLAAF fighters aren't strong enough for carrier ops. They're testing a primitive AEGIS type defense system, if operable would provide AAW but ASW is EXTREMELY lacking.

Here is a photo of a new russian destroyer, could the chinese build or buy these to improve their AAW. And couldn,t they buy a couple Udaloys for ASW.

 

[Big-E]

Here is a photo of a new russian destroyer, could the chinese build or buy these to improve their AAW. And couldn,t they buy a couple Udaloys for ASW.

The Chinese are working on AEGIS type systems, why would they want russian AAW radars? They don't need Udaloys, they need to upgrade their bow and towed array sonars, sonobuoys and dipping sonars.

 

[contedicavour]

The Chinese are working on AEGIS type systems, why would they want russian AAW radars? They don't need Udaloys, they need to upgrade their bow and towed array sonars, sonobuoys and dipping sonars.

I'm wondering to what extent the supposedly Chinese AEGIS programme is not just an evolution of Russian designs. I would be surprised if China had right now the technology to field a system comparable to US AEGIS !
I agree Udaloys are big ASW ships (not really DDGs at all, unless we're just talking size and tonnage) with old technology.
Unless the post above talked about the Admiral Chabanenko which is an enlarged Udaloy with the AAW of the Sovremenny. A very good ship... for the early '90s

cheers

 

[tphuang]

I'm wondering to what extent the supposedly Chinese AEGIS programme is not just an evolution of Russian designs. I would be surprised if China had right now the technology to field a system comparable to US AEGIS !
I agree Udaloys are big ASW ships (not really DDGs at all, unless we're just talking size and tonnage) with old technology.
Unless the post above talked about the Admiral Chabanenko which is an enlarged Udaloy with the AAW of the Sovremenny. A very good ship... for the early '90s

cheers

well, China had the choice of Udaloy or Sovremenny in the 90s, and decided to choose Sovremenny. I personally think they should've taken Udaloy, but that's just me.

The Chinese "Aegis" program is probably an evolution of a lot of things. I wouldn't just limit it to one source.

 

[Francois]

Bah, the Russian never had a PAR working so far.
And reportedly, the Chinese PAR is Ukrainian, with a French CCS.

 

[Big-E]

Bah, the Russian never had a PAR working so far.
And reportedly, the Chinese PAR is Ukrainian, with a French CCS.

How did they get French CCS with a EU ban? Did they steal it?

 

[tphuang]

How did they get French CCS with a EU ban? Did they steal it?

Not sure about French involvement, could be that they got some help from Thales. As for the radar, it's definitely indigenous, but it might have gotten assistance from the kvant.

 

[Francois]

The CCS is a derivative of the first generation of TAVITAC.
Was sold before the TAM slaughter.
Can't be improved by chinese, because it is NOT possible to rev-eng.

The radar is definitively an Ukrainian design.
Very few countries can design such system entirely.

 

[Big-E]

The CCS is a derivative of the first generation of TAVITAC.
Was sold before the TAM slaughter.
Can't be improved by chinese, because it is NOT possible to rev-eng.

The radar is definitively an Ukrainian design.
Very few countries can design such system entirely.

If it's a pre-TAM then it can't be very sophisticated and without the ability to rev-eng then it's garbage. The Ukranian radars deficiency with the lack of data capability of this system would be lucky to engage two targets at a time with any accuracy.:lol3

 

[Francois]

Usually, softwares are very difficult to rev.
Especially this type of soft.

The Ukrainians got ALL the experience from the Russians' mistakes.
I would hope it is far better then the first gen.
By contrario with their Northern neighbors, the Ukrainians did really quickly apply the Western design solutions (with the great help of Isreal I have to add).

I changed my mind lately, and subsequently, I call the 052C a potent threat, not to underestimate.
Again, against second tier navies around the South China Sea, it is perfect.
I would not put it in front of either SKN, SingN or MSDF, but a small navy like Philippines or else, yes.

 

[long live usa]

it would be intresting to know if a PLAN crew could run a carrier round the clock like the USN with the same skill and lack of sleep

 

[tphuang]

The CCS is a derivative of the first generation of TAVITAC.
Was sold before the TAM slaughter.
Can't be improved by chinese, because it is NOT possible to rev-eng.

The radar is definitively an Ukrainian design.
Very few countries can design such system entirely.

Nobody knows how long China has been working on it and what kind of assistance China got from it. I'm sure China got Ukrainian assistance, but to what extent, nobody other than lab 14 would know. And yes, lab 14 developed it. I mean, has anyone ever even seen the kvant design to know how much lab 14 got out of it?

 

[KAPITAIN]

It would be nice to see varyag at sea for once, but my bet is Russia aided china not only in experts but also engines propellors and sensors to out fit the ship.

But thats only my opinion.

 

[Big-E]

It would be nice to see varyag at sea for once, but my bet is Russia aided china not only in experts but also engines propellors and sensors to out fit the ship.

But thats only my opinion.

Due to their level of cooperation I wouldn't doubt it.

 

[Jtimes2]

I know this is a little off topic, but i was wondering if the rumors that i have heard that have said that the russian federation said that they are working on a completly new design for two large fleet carrier size "aviation crusiers" one for the baltic sea fleet and one for the pacific fleet. The statement said that construction would begin in 2010 and be over around 2016. acording to some simple math i did, this is particullarily how long it would have taken them to build the UL'Yanovsk CVN. Also, with the Nikolayev ship yard now on Ukranian turf, would the Ukranians lease it to the russians or would the russians have to modify one of their other fleet bases in order to build these carriers, for example the baltic fleet base, which is where they built the Kiev's.

I haven't heard of any plans for new CV's; but they are planning two "assault cruisers" of the Ivan Gren (Project 11711) class. They are kind of a cross between the Ivan Rogov and the Italian San Giorgio class; overbeach ships with an emphasis on helo ops. The Russians are keen to develop a limited-but-rapid affordable power projection capability; kind of like the Brits, French, and Italians now have. All I've seen of it for the past few years is a 3d model that looks like a 3rd grader did on a Commodore 64: PHOTO:
http://static.flickr.com/72/166238619_f7d3163f8f_o.jpg

With all the struggles they are having keeping Kuz going I can't imagine them finding $ for two new flattops, but who knows. The advisors in India helping them with their Air Defense Ship class CV project (the newbuild to follow the Gorshkov conversion) are no doubt listening & learning on how to build an affordable fleet CV that actually works.

 

[contedicavour]

I haven't heard of any plans for new CV's; but they are planning two "assault cruisers" of the Ivan Gren (Project 11711) class. They are kind of a cross between the Ivan Rogov and the Italian San Giorgio class; overbeach ships with an emphasis on helo ops. The Russians are keen to develop a limited-but-rapid affordable power projection capability; kind of like the Brits, French, and Italians now have. All I've seen of it for the past few years is a 3d model that looks like a 3rd grader did on a Commodore 64: PHOTO:
http://static.flickr.com/72/166238619_f7d3163f8f_o.jpg

With all the struggles they are having keeping Kuz going I can't imagine them finding $ for two new flattops, but who knows. The advisors in India helping them with their Air Defense Ship class CV project (the newbuild to follow the Gorshkov conversion) are no doubt listening & learning on how to build an affordable fleet CV that actually works.

Very interesting, and probably worth a separate thread.
The Russians still have 3 Ivan Rogov and several Ropuchas. I doubt building new LST or LPDs should be their first priority. I would focus on preserving and modernizing some of the surviving Udaloy and Sovremenny...
cheers

 

[Zombie Krupp]

Varyag never had its engines installed and has been left to rust for about a decade. It will never enter military service. China has repeatedly bought carriers from other nations, and EVERY time people have speculated and reported that the new acquisition was going to be put into PLAN service. It has never happened and its not going to happen with Varyag. The amount of work that would be required to get the totally alien and decaying ship back into service would probably exceeded the work required to build a whole new carrier.

And as for the Russian amphibious assault ships, that’s a real project but as yet the ships have not been funded. It might seem like an odd thing for Russia to buy, but think about it. How much naval combat goes on these days, vs. land combat? Russia is far more likely to make use of an amphibious expeditionary capability then it is to go toe to toe with enemy warships.
Amphibious ships are also not that expensive ton per ton since most of the ship is just empty space to house equipment and supplies, a USN Wasp class amphibious assault ship for example displaces about 40,000 tons, yet only costs as much as a 9000 ton Burke class destroyer.