USAF asks industry to answer C-130 replacement questions

[KiwiRob]

Desert Storm 1 1991. All the A4s at that stage had the Kahu upgrade and they would've played havoc against Husseins tank and armies in general. Instead the NZG decided to send some medics who upon return learned a hard lesson about keeping their mouths shut around a lot of service personnel who were highly pi**ed off at not going.

East Timor 1999. 2 Sqn could've positioned for maritime strike against Indonesia Naval Units that tried to interfere and 75 Sqn could've down CAS for ground troops and backed up 2 Sqn. Both were opportunities lost.

In both counts it would've cost money. You also have to plan for the days when you may / will need to have the ACF capability.

Any assistance we could have given in GW1 would have been negligible compared to the large numbers of aircraft put up by the US, UK, France etc...our A4's would have most likely have sat around doing bugger all. I've been told that a number of SAS troopers were on secondment to the UK SAS and went to the Gulf and participated.

 

[t68]

Any assistance we could have given in GW1 would have been negligible compared to the large numbers of aircraft put up by the US, UK, France etc...our A4's would have most likely have sat around doing bugger all. I've been told that a number of SAS troopers were on secondment to the UK SAS and went to the Gulf and participated.

In the greater scheme of things RAAF contribution 2003 was a drop of water in the ocean compared to what the yanks dropped on, but it does not mean its not appreciated and noticed by those that matter in the halls of power.

 

[Jezza]

What about the Kawasaki C-2.
Its been developed by the Japanese already.
Kawasaki C-2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ADMk2]

Playing devils advocate here, name me one operation where NZ would have been in a position to offer it's ACF which would have made one jot of a difference to the outcome. When it was canned I was shocked and dismayed like many others, yet now I really don't see it as a significant issue at all.

You could say that about the entire modern NZDF. If the New Zealand Army hadn't gone to Timor or Afghanistan would those missions failed?

Unlikely, but that doesn't mean the NZDF should be disbanded and a Peace Corps raised...

 

[MrConservative]

Any assistance we could have given in GW1 would have been negligible compared to the large numbers of aircraft put up by the US, UK, France etc...our A4's would have most likely have sat around doing bugger all.

GW1 was missed because 75Sqd was still in the middle of Project Kahu with only half of the fleet had been completed when Saddam invaded in August 2 1990 with quite a bit of transition work still to be done. That was the key reason why they were not considered by Stout Street and only the Hercs were sent. However if Kuwait was invaded a year or two later the Kahu models at DLOC with would have been very effective in CAS role. They would have silenced their critics and shown their worth. Timing is sometimes everything.

Which is where I put the C130 replacement. With the A400M getting ready to go this decade, a future C130 replacement starting mid 20s will likely mean that it wont be seen in as many non US markets as venerable legacy Herc.

 

[ngatimozart]

What about the Kawasaki C-2.
Its been developed by the Japanese already.
Kawasaki C-2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is not in production yet so is an unknown in a lot of ways. The Airbus Military A400 is ahead of any western contender for the C130J replacement because of timing and it is now in production. If say Lockheed Martin or Boeing decided tomorrow to go ahead with a C130 replacement they still have years of R&D plus design even before they even get to the prototype stage.

 

[t68]

It is not in production yet so is an unknown in a lot of ways. The Airbus Military A400 is ahead of any western contender for the C130J replacement because of timing and it is now in production. If say Lockheed Martin or Boeing decided tomorrow to go ahead with a C130 replacement they still have years of R&D plus design even before they even get to the prototype stage.

Don't think that would bother LM orBoeing as majority will go to the US market anyway. it would depend on timming for the RAAF, UK and most of NATO are commited to the A400.

 

[Jezza]

It is not in production yet so is an unknown in a lot of ways. The Airbus Military A400 is ahead of any western contender for the C130J replacement because of timing and it is now in production. If say Lockheed Martin or Boeing decided tomorrow to go ahead with a C130 replacement they still have years of R&D plus design even before they even get to the prototype stage.

First flight 2010
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL6MS-KZPrA"]Japan JASDF Kawasaki C-2 (XC-2) First Flight - 26 January 2010 - YouTube[/nomedia]
View attachment 6108
Entering service in 2011

 

[Jonton]

Well, many European countries are replacing their C-130s with the A400M. It seems like an excellent aircraft. But there is nothing wrong with the C-130J - new, modern and great at its job. So why replace it?

 

[ngatimozart]

Well, many European countries are replacing their C-130s with the A400M. It seems like an excellent aircraft. But there is nothing wrong with the C-130J - new, modern and great at its job. So why replace it?

Probably because it is not meeting all of the customer requirements. Times have changed and payloads that militaries move have become bulkier and larger. Costs are far more important in the current environment and will be in the future. Miltaries and there govts want more capability for their buck.

 

[StobieWan]

Well, many European countries are replacing their C-130s with the A400M. It seems like an excellent aircraft. But there is nothing wrong with the C-130J - new, modern and great at its job. So why replace it?

Simply put the A400 shifts more stuff in less flights so that's less fuel and less time in the air. It's also less time spent breaking down loads to fit. C130J still *works* and is a bit more flexible in short field choices so it can end up being used as a short range connector - drop stuff off from C17 or A400 from a long haul and break out packets of stuff to short strips or palletised air drop with the C130J's.

 

[swerve]

Well, many European countries are replacing their C-130s with the A400M. It seems like an excellent aircraft. But there is nothing wrong with the C-130J - new, modern and great at its job. So why replace it?

Ask the French.

There was a statement made during the intervention in Mali to the effect that the flying of cargo to Bamako, off-loading, reloading onto smaller aircraft (e.g. C-130) & flying to northern Mali could have been done with about a quarter of the aircraft movements, faster, with fewer people, & much less fuel burn, by A400M flying straight from France to northern Mali.

 

[the concerned]

What are the capabilities of the Japanese transport aircraft that they are building.does it have as any short field capabilities like the A 400

 

[My2Cents]

Ask the French.

There was a statement made during the intervention in Mali to the effect that the flying of cargo to Bamako, off-loading, reloading onto smaller aircraft (e.g. C-130) & flying to northern Mali could have been done with about a quarter of the aircraft movements, faster, with fewer people, & much less fuel burn, by A400M flying straight from France to northern Mali.

Faster -- yes.

But would they want to fly the A400Ms into an area where they might be subject to attack?

 

[StobieWan]

Faster -- yes.

But would they want to fly the A400Ms into an area where they might be subject to attack?

They've been sending C5's and 17's into Khandhar airbase for a decade now - and that can get pretty hairy as anyone who's ever done an approach can attest I'm sure.

That does bring me to a point I'd wondered about earlier - why on earth is there a requirement for such tight short field performance to allow insertion of light armour into what conceptually would appear to be enemy held territory. One bloke with a MANPAADS...

Seriously, if you can't find a few hundred metres of straight dry road within 50 miles of where you want to be, and you're inserting troops as part of a push forward, there could be *anything* out there...

 

[swerve]

There are airfields in northern Mali, but nobody has flown C-17s into them. Too short, too rough, supposedly. The French say they'd have been happy to fly in A400M.

Kandahar has a 3200 metre runway.

 

[ngatimozart]

Ask the French.

There was a statement made during the intervention in Mali to the effect that the flying of cargo to Bamako, off-loading, reloading onto smaller aircraft (e.g. C-130) & flying to northern Mali could have been done with about a quarter of the aircraft movements, faster, with fewer people, & much less fuel burn, by A400M flying straight from France to northern Mali.

IIRC the statement was from Airbus Military and it said that 4 x A400s could've lifted in the equivalent of 9 x C130J loads direct from France more cheaply.

 

[StobieWan]

There are airfields in northern Mali, but nobody has flown C-17s into them. Too short, too rough, supposedly. The French say they'd have been happy to fly in A400M.

Kandahar has a 3200 metre runway.

It does but in the early days, getting in and out was very exciting by all accounts - mortar strikes, fear of manpaads etc.