US sending tanks to Afghanistan

[Feanor]

I would not volunteer in my right mind to haul around even 50lb of broken-into-many-parts Wombat....over rough terrain...at altitude....in addition to standard gear.

Maybe sometime when the troops get robotic carriers (MULE, etc.) to haul stuff around or even combat-ready exoskeletons things will be fun. Slap 120mm on top of the exoskeleton, hip fire and smoke the victory cigar (cigar and camera should come standard with the suit).

50 lbs is quite possible. Not very nice but quite doable. Not much more difficult then carrying broken down .50s.

 

[My2Cents]

Well there has to be a market for a cheaper thermobaric Javelin round. The current round is optimized for top-attack against armour or direct attack against bunkers/soft-skinned vehicles. A single mode thermobaric guided round must offer a cheaper alternative. The launcher firing post is invaluable (round or no round) because the thermal provides v-useful all-weather, day/night surveillance in support of a myriad of assets (sniper pairs for example).

A better choice for a Javelin replacement in Afghanistan would be the Spike missile (USMC, not Israeli). Smaller warhead for reduced collateral, longer range, 1/5th the weight, and designed to be cheap. It cannot take out a tank, but it would be perfect the antipersonnel role.

Mount an 84 or 120mm recoilless rifle on the back of Jackal or future Ocelot and you have a very cheap line-of site weapon able to provide direct fire support, which is capable of being lifted by a Chinook. Low tech enemy, low tech solution. A far cheaper alternative than having a fleet of leopard II's in support of the battle group. The old Wombat had a mean canister round, turned it in to a giant shotgun. Nice way to clear the green zone in summer, come under fire from the corn fields and bang - problem solved

Stick with the 84mm Carl Gustav, the fact that it can easily be used by dismounts adds tactical flexibility. And you can buy new launchers and the desired munitions on the open market, instead of recreating the production lines for the Wombat.

As for canister rounds, if you are close enough to use them you definitely are within range of small arms and RPGs. Not a good idea with a large, lightly armored, vehicle. You need something that can deploy farther down range.

 

[kato]

I would not volunteer in my right mind to haul around even 50lb of broken-into-many-parts Wombat....over rough terrain...at altitude....in addition to standard gear.

They've invented something for that job already. Just don't buy local ones, they sympathize with the enemy and won't cross rivers.

 

[Firn]

They've invented something for that job already. Just don't buy local ones, they sympathize with the enemy and won't cross rivers.

This MULE is too field proven and has a too stubborn and too highly autonomous developed B.I to be possibly considered.

 

[fozz]

How about the new XM-25? That is going to be a game changer on the ground.

If you haven't heard about, not sure how you haven't... go look it up on any news organization.

More rounds on target, faster, and without having to call in the fast movers.

I would provide a link but until 10 posts... I cannot.

This may be originally off-topic but when we are talking anti-personel as previous mentioned due to an MG Position etc. this is going to change the way we play in the sandbox.

Now yes we can debate effective range/munitions etc. but for the Infantry on the ground this is a very effect light way option.

 

[Waylander]

It will be interesting to see how it performs in an operational environment but it will not be a game changer.

20mm doesn't carry a very big payload and penetration capabilities are not that big either.

It may very well be usefull in some situations but IMHO it is given much too much credit by the media before proving it's worth.

 

[fozz]

Oh I agree that it is given to much credit by the media but I still believe psychologically if you are being fired upon by the 25mm (Don't mean to correct you but it is a 25mm) it will be more disheartening and threatening than any 5.56 will be.

Fire rounds in a Hut with a 5.56 or fire one or two 25mm's into its front door? The airburst will take care of the rest. I can agree that it isn't going to "Win the war" or anything crazy like that - it's not what I am trying to imply. I just believe it will be a very effective weapon on the ground.

 

[Waylander]

Ooops, typo from me.

As I said it will be interesting to see the reports from the ground.

In A-stan several TICs include compounds and/or long range engagements. In both scenarios the weapon may have problems. It will not be able to breach compound walls and hitting a window isn't all that easy even with a targeting computer. At long ranges it will also be difficult to get the grenade within the right kill distance and angle.

If nothing else the TI with the LRF comes in handy even without the grenade launcher.

 

[SASWanabe]

i would rather a .50 bmg rifle with an AP round any day, i had the opportunity to fire one on a recent holiday to the US, hurt a hell of alot more than my .308 (good pain that is) but it'll hit a man sized target at 1000m easily

 

[Feanor]

i would rather a .50 bmg rifle with an AP round any day, i had the opportunity to fire one on a recent holiday to the US, hurt a hell of alot more than my .308 (good pain that is) but it'll hit a man sized target at 1000m easily

I can sure tell you which one I'd rather have to carry...

 

[Firn]

Ooops, typo from me.

As I said it will be interesting to see the reports from the ground.

In A-stan several TICs include compounds and/or long range engagements. In both scenarios the weapon may have problems. It will not be able to breach compound walls and hitting a window isn't all that easy even with a targeting computer. At long ranges it will also be difficult to get the grenade within the right kill distance and angle.

If nothing else the TI with the LRF comes in handy even without the grenade launcher.

Indeed. The technology regarding TI, LRF and in part the FCS should be pretty solid, much more so than ten years ago Apart from packaging all compactly, the correct fuzing of the ammo and the effectivness of the burst of the pretty small greande seem to be the biggest problem areas.

All in all, I'm pretty curious how it will perform, but it is of course in a completely different category than a 80-120mm warhead, fire by a tank or a launcher. And it won't certainly be all that influential in the outcome of the Afghan war, just like the tanks won't make a real strategic difference....

 

[fozz]

Yea... Very good thoughts coming onto the board regarding this XM25.... I've been shot out of the water... Haha.

I'll defend it one last time... It will be a nice weapon to have along side all of the current weaponry and may solve problems where infantry are having a hard time putting rounds on target within 500-1000m's Ok - I am done; Just thought i'd throw in my .02

The tanks will be a huge aid in some situations but it will all depend how they are deployed in the field.

I guess success can be defined in many different ways.

The weapons in the field will not matter or make a different if the strategy and mission do not compliment them and vice versa. ""Coalition forces have engaged the enemy through targeted raids, designed to push insurgents out of a given area. Best described as "constant clearance operations." These efforts have failed to achieve lasting efforts because they clear an area but fail to prevent the insurgency from returning."" (Quoted from Institute for the Study of War - ISW)

Can have all the XM25's in the world and M1's raining down fireballs but without the proper strategy/quantity of forces/ANA help...

If I am steering this discussion the wrong direction please let me know.

 

[SASWanabe]

I can sure tell you which one I'd rather have to carry...

Anzio Ironworks - Super Lightweight 50 BMG Rifle

weighs .5lb less than an xm25...

 

[Bonza]

Anzio Ironworks - Super Lightweight 50 BMG Rifle

weighs .5lb less than an xm25...

It's not a good comparison, anyway. Why compare the two when they have markedly different capabilities and roles? It's not like the military has to choose one or the other.

 

[SASWanabe]

It's not a good comparison, anyway. Why compare the two when they have markedly different capabilities and roles? It's not like the military has to choose one or the other.

just stating personal preference

 

[Abraham Gubler]

In A-stan several TICs include compounds and/or long range engagements. In both scenarios the weapon may have problems. It will not be able to breach compound walls and hitting a window isn't all that easy even with a targeting computer. At long ranges it will also be difficult to get the grenade within the right kill distance and angle.

There are lots of different engagement scenarios in Afghanistan because there is a lot of different terrain. The long range engagement is more typical of the mountain, high valley and desert areas of Afghanistan. But a lot of Afghanistan’s populated areas is what is called the “Green Zone” and here it is a highly dense, close terrain with lots of obstacles caused by the intensive agriculture. Walls, dikes, thick growth, mud brick farm shacks and the like abound and at very close proximities. In this kind of areas grenade launchers are very important and the enemy use a heap of RPGs.

The XM25 is just another grenade launcher. Compared to the 40mm grenade it sacrifices hitting power for accuracy (via velocity). I would prefer a MGL six shot 40mm with digital TA/FCS personally because of the more flexible and harder hitting family of grenades.

 

[Feanor]

Anzio Ironworks - Super Lightweight 50 BMG Rifle

weighs .5lb less than an xm25...

Is this what is actually used? I'm well aware there are a lot of nice weapons out there (for example there are a lot of things better then an M-16A4) but in terms of the variants in service...

 

[SASWanabe]

Is this what is actually used? I'm well aware there are a lot of nice weapons out there (for example there are a lot of things better then an M-16A4) but in terms of the variants in service...

just trying to make the point that there could be alternatives to an XM25 on the squad level

 

[My2Cents]

i would rather a .50 bmg rifle with an AP round any day, i had the opportunity to fire one on a recent holiday to the US, hurt a hell of alot more than my .308 (good pain that is) but it'll hit a man sized target at 1000m easily

An impressive weapon for a sniper, but not much use on the average patrol. Hauling enough ammo for an extended fire fight is real problem.

You also have to be acutely aware of the backstop for the target. Shoot at target in front of a mud brick wall with a 5.56mm round and it stops there, use a .50 BMG and you need to worry about what might be behind the wall, and often several more walls, and everything in between, as well. I read one report from an armored unit in OIF that claimed 120mm HEAT was preferred over the .50 coax when engaging targets in multistory apartment blocks because the damage usually stopped in the second room (i.e. the room next to where the shell detonated), whereas .50 BMG rounds would usually rip through 6 to 12 apartments before they stopped. Puts and interesting spin on the concepts of collateral damage and over-kill.

 

[fozz]

An impressive weapon for a sniper, but not much use on the average patrol. Hauling enough ammo for an extended fire fight is real problem.

You also have to be acutely aware of the backstop for the target. Shoot at target in front of a mud brick wall with a 5.56mm round and it stops there, use a .50 BMG and you need to worry about what might be behind the wall, and often several more walls, and everything in between, as well. I read one report from an armored unit in OIF that claimed 120mm HEAT was preferred over the .50 coax when engaging targets in multistory apartment blocks because the damage usually stopped in the second room (i.e. the room next to where the shell detonated), whereas .50 BMG rounds would usually rip through 6 to 12 apartments before they stopped. Puts and interesting spin on the concepts of collateral damage and over-kill.

And in this case an Airburst round that sets the range it detonates at could potentially be very useful.