US freezes arms sales to Taiwan

[von_noobie]

Taiwan currently has a fleet of 146 F-16 A/B aircrafts which is plenty enough to protect the island nation in the event of a surprise attack plus it also has a fleet of 56 French Mirage 2005-5s fighter jets and an additional 126 indigenous fighter aircrafts, so the request for the purchase of any additional aircrafts from the US should not be warranted at this point...

While to the average Joe that might seem like a s**t load of fighter aircraft for such a small nation, you have to realize the size of the force opposing them, With there current amount of military equipment, Taiwan's own conflict scenario's have shown they wouldn't last more then 3 days. so no, they have no where near enough. As it is the Chinese cry about anything and everything that goes against what they want. They don't even want the US to sell Taiwan the Patriot's, which is solely a defensive weapon.

But hey, i agree with you on the fact that 66 extra F-16's are not warranted at this time, because they would do stuff all to aid them, no, they need 66 F-22 Raptor's.

 

[ManilaBoy]

While to the average Joe that might seem like a s**t load of fighter aircraft for such a small nation, you have to realize the size of the force opposing them, With there current amount of military equipment, Taiwan's own conflict scenario's have shown they wouldn't last more then 3 days. so no, they have no where near enough. As it is the Chinese cry about anything and everything that goes against what they want. They don't even want the US to sell Taiwan the Patriot's, which is solely a defensive weapon.

But hey, i agree with you on the fact that 66 extra F-16's are not warranted at this time, because they would do stuff all to aid them, no, they need 66 F-22 Raptor's.

SURE! I have no problem with Taiwan requesting to purchase 66 F-22 Raptors for it's Air Force instead of the F-16 A/B aircraft that's if the island nation can even afford a squadron of this very expensive aircrafts plus current US laws phrohibits it' sale to foreign coutries...

 

[colay]

Taiwan's Mirage 2000 Fleet have been problematic aside from being very expensive to operate and maintain with adverse impact on ROCAF effectiveness. I suspect if Taiwan does manage to get new F-16s, the Mirage fleet may be retired sooner rather than later. I can't say I blame them though.


Taiwan's fighter jets too costly to maintain - upiasia.com


excerpts:

In other words, the cost of a Mirage 2000-5 ground service station is three times that of the F-16 fighter.

cost of these (I.e. Mirage 2000 ) parts was at least two times higher than those for the F-16, on average.

the latter’s (I.e. Mirage 2000) fuel consumption is at least 1.5 times higher than the F-16.

 

[Ananda]

Taiwan has sufficient fighter aircrafts to defend the island nation with a fleet of about 146 F-16 A/B, 56 French Mirage 2000-5s and another 126 indigenous warplanes hence the request for an additional purchase of 66 F-16 C/D aircraft from the US should not be warranted at this time but the upgrade package for the existing F-16 A/B should be provided soon...

Well they want something that can have definite edge over J-10 B, or whatever Flanker derivatives that PLAN come out with. Upgraded F-16 block 20, regardless extensiveness of the upgrade will at best provide something that can only match J-10 B.

 

[fretburner]

I believe they ordered ATACMs.

Are those stand-off weapons? Those are rockets with half the range of a SLAM-ER.

 

[surpreme]

The Senators that trying to get this pass could do it. We just have to wait and see what happen next but dont be surprise if it Taiwan get the 66 F-16 C/D

 

[ManilaBoy]

The Senators that trying to get this pass could do it. We just have to wait and see what happen next but dont be surprise if it Taiwan get the 66 F-16 C/D

No I won't be surprise at all if indeed it passed and the sale is allowed to proceed but what kind of reaction will the US receive from China? This would be considered a major arms sales if it does happen and there could be consequences involved...

 

[dragonfire]

It would be interesting to understand the AntiShip load-out of the proposed sale as the major threat to Taiwan would be originating from the up-coming Aircraft Carrier(s) & Amphibious Landing/Assault Ships. Other wise Taiwan's AF looks quite capable from a defence point of view against a conventional attack/invasion.

 

[ManilaBoy]

The Washington Times just reported that the plan arms package sale to Taiwan has been authorized by US President Obama with the exception of the 66 F-16 C/D advanced aircraft which has been debated by the congress and the administration for the last 2 years...


Obama agrees to sell arms to Taiwan - Washington Times

 

[Bonza]

I've merged the thread from the Air Force forums with this one for the sake of keeping what is essentially the same topic in the one place and to stop the duplication of posts from one into the other. Cheers all.

 

[colay]

Are those stand-off weapons? Those are rockets with half the range of a SLAM-ER.

Accroding to the linked artice, just enough range to threaten coastal targets.. e.g. hitting forces massed for an invasion of the island,
I read that SLAM-ER has a range of >150 miles w/c is less than ATACMS. JASSM is a bit longer-ranged and JASSM-ER even more so.


ATACMS Aimed At China

 

[ManilaBoy]

Accroding to the linked artice, just enough range to threaten coastal targets.. e.g. hitting forces massed for an invasion of the island,
I read that SLAM-ER has a range of >150 miles w/c is less than ATACMS. JASSM is a bit longer-ranged and JASSM-ER even more so.


ATACMS Aimed At China

Then Taiwan should have no worries at all about not getting the 66 advanced F-16 C/D aircrafts since they will have this additional defense capability anyway in the event of an imminent invasion from mainland China, this guided rockets are highly effective within it's range...

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Then Taiwan should have no worries at all about not getting the 66 advanced F-16 C/D aircrafts since they will have this additional defense capability anyway in the event of an imminent invasion from mainland China, this guided rockets are highly effective within it's range...

Their range isn't great enough to be sure of trashing Chinese airbases that would be used to attack Taiwan. Taiwan needs an airforce to protect its airspace. Ergo it needs new F-16s, nothing else being offered by other countries.

If new F-16s aren't sold within the next year or so, Taiwan will have to start shovelling money into AIDC to get new IDF C/Ds and also work on a future jet.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

The US will apparently be selling $4.2 billion worth of arms to Taiwan, including upgrades, but not new F-16s.

So, what will this $4.2 billion include? Might it have other things like some of the design work for those submarines promised a decade ago?

 

[colay]

Taiwan needs new a/c. Even if they got the new F-16s, they'd still wind up with a smaller airforce in a decade's time due to projected retirements of older aircraft.


U.S. Congress Pushes for Taiwan F-16s With TAMA - Defense News

....
The Air Force has a mix of 387 indigenous, French and U.S.-built fighter aircraft: 145 F-16A/Bs, 126 Indigenous Defense Fighters, 56 Mirage 2000-5s and 60 aging F-5E/F Tigers. Taiwan is preparing to retire the F-5s within five years and mothballing the Mirage fighters within five to 10 years due to high maintenance costs. This will reduce the number of fighters to 271 at the same time China increases its fighter strength....

 

[legoboy]

Taiwan needs new a/c. Even if they got the new F-16s, they'd still wind up with a smaller airforce in a decade's time due to projected retirements of older aircraft.
....
The Air Force has a mix of 387 indigenous, French and U.S.-built fighter aircraft: 145 F-16A/Bs, 126 Indigenous Defense Fighters, 56 Mirage 2000-5s and 60 aging F-5E/F Tigers. Taiwan is preparing to retire the F-5s within five years and mothballing the Mirage fighters within five to 10 years due to high maintenance costs. This will reduce the number of fighters to 271 at the same time China increases its fighter strength....

I'm pretty sure Taiwan's airforce is already significantly smaller than China's.

 

[colay]

The US will apparently be selling $4.2 billion worth of arms to Taiwan, including upgrades, but not new F-16s.

So, what will this $4.2 billion include? Might it have other things like some of the design work for those submarines promised a decade ago?

No details are given AFAIK.
IIRC that submarine proposal is no longer on the table.. the Taiwanese themselves shelved it a long time ago.
For the F-16 upgrade, for the ROC's sake I hope the US upgrades them with AESA
radar which should increase the lethality of the ROCAF's AIM 120 C7 misisles.

 

[fretburner]

Accroding to the linked artice, just enough range to threaten coastal targets.. e.g. hitting forces massed for an invasion of the island,
I read that SLAM-ER has a range of >150 miles w/c is less than ATACMS. JASSM is a bit longer-ranged and JASSM-ER even more so.


ATACMS Aimed At China

You probably mixed up the miles versus kilometers. This source says range of 87 miles to 186 miles depending on variant.

 

[colay]

You probably mixed up the miles versus kilometers. This source says range of 87 miles to 186 miles depending on variant.

I did try to ascertain the ATACMs variant but had no luck. The Taiwan Strait is 100 miles wide at its narrowest pointso its logical to assume they acquired the long-range version,I.e. 186 miles = 300 Km.

 

[rockharder]

whatever military power the taiwanese can build will not be meaningful comparing with the mainland side. Some people like to talk about power balance. What balance? 23 mil people balance with 1.3 bil? Taiwan is only paying an installment for possible U.S. protection in case of conflicts. What they are buying doesn't matter at all. However, their island is strategically too vulnerable to defend, especially with the ever increasing Chinese power. It'll prove to be a fantasy when the moment of truth comes.