us clears patriot (pac3) sale to india

[keshto patel]

So far its just been offered. It's upto the Indians to purchase it or not. ANd many would (rightly) consider the PAC3's of not being "junk".

Anti missile batteries are used against incoming nuclear missiles. In order for any country to be safe, these batteries would have to deliver 100 percent efficiency. Even if it fails by 5 percent, it means the host country would not be safe despite so many billions.

And PAC-3 does not have 100 pcnt kill accuracy.

First think this.
Why usa would not give awacs, but yes sell PAC-3s?

 

[aaaditya]

well as of now s-300 and pac3 are the best options(something is better than nothing)
pac3 is combat tested and proven,i dont think any system can guarantee an error free operation or 100% success rate,pac3 can also be quite effective for long range and high altitude targetting of enemy aircrafts.this missile system is in operation with several nations.india should however try to acquire the technology of patriot and then upgrade the indigenous akash to pac3 level.

 

[keshto patel]

,i dont think any system can guarantee an error free operation or 100% success rate,.[/QUOTE]


Thats the bottom line when billions of dollars are at risk and the country like USA is selling them to you, the very country that wont sell sentry ( AWACS ) to you.

Indian Railway: 70 percent of the 75 year old bridges have to be replaced, they have overlived their shelf life, that translates to billions of dollars. Where is the money?

India has 136 billion dollars, deduct 120 billion that it owes to IMF n WB and what you got? just 16 billions.
Why squander it all on PAC-3 which can not ensure that no pakistani missile would be able to hit India after it has been employed.

So why splurge?
The whole concept is fishy to outspend India and make it financially weak.

 

[aaaditya]

well kesho no compromise can be made on the defence of the nation as far as bridges are concerned even the 75 year old ones are holding and the ones which are not holding are being rebuilt.

kesho there can be no compromise on defence of the nation
india would not be spending all its billions in one day or on a single acquisition.
india's defence spending is one of the lowest in the world. indian armed forces are already languishing,they need battle tanks,artillery guns,air defence missiles and submarines.any nation which does not spend on its security is doomed even pakistan understands it.

also kesho india's economy is currently in a relatively good posistion,this year's gdp growth rate is expected to be around 7.5%(last year's gdp was worth 750 billion$ and ppp was worth 1.6trillion$)
all this has been achieved because india's armed forces have ensure relative freedom from aggression they prevented the kargil incident from affecting the nation.i think we owe them something to fulfill their pressing needs.:coffee

india currently is still developing the technological capabilities which are not yet mature enough,hence there is nothing wrong in these kind of acquisitions as long as we can get the technology and the source codes.:coffee

 

[keshto patel]

well kesho no compromise can be made on the defence of the nation as far as bridges are concerned even the 75 year old ones are holding and the ones which are not holding are being rebuilt.

kesho there can be no compromise on defence of the nation
india would not be spending all its billions in one day or on a single acquisition.
india's defence spending is one of the lowest in the world. indian armed forces are already languishing,they need battle tanks,artillery guns,air defence missiles and submarines.any nation which does not spend on its security is doomed even pakistan understands it.

also kesho india's economy is currently in a relatively good posistion,this year's gdp growth rate is expected to be around 7.5%(last year's gdp was worth 750 billion$ and ppp was worth 1.6trillion$)
all this has been achieved because india's armed forces have ensure relative freedom from aggression they prevented the kargil incident from affecting the nation.i think we owe them something to fulfill their pressing needs.:coffee

india currently is still developing the technological capabilities which are not yet mature enough,hence there is nothing wrong in these kind of acquisitions as long as we can get the technology and the source codes.:coffee

I did not say nothing about other military hardware being procured.
Pls stay focused on PAC-3 which does not give a gaurantee that there would be no mushroom cloud despite billions ( will be ) spent.

More, its soming from a country which has a bad reputation on sanction regime. What happens if the product is inoperable due to lack of spares? sanctions are applied automatically by congress on one or the other pretexts against india and other countries.

To not squander our money is also a part of national security.

 

[aaaditya]

for heavens sake kesho give me the name of one system which gives you the guarantee that there will be no mushroom cloud.
usa may have a sanction regime but that does not matter as long as we can get transfer of technology and source codes9we can then even reverse engineer the system)
if we go by your argument india should give up all the gps system available to its millitary since they are all controlled by usa and can be jammed by the usa in the event of a war.:coffee

 

[highsea]

Anti missile batteries are used against incoming nuclear missiles. In order for any country to be safe, these batteries would have to deliver 100 percent efficiency. Even if it fails by 5 percent, it means the host country would not be safe despite so many billions.

Rubbish. Patriot can be used against conventional missiles and aircraft, as has been proven. Patriot went 8 for 9 in OIF, and the 9th was only considered not to be a kill because it didn't destroy the warhead. The missile was still hit and sent off course so it missed it's target.

And PAC-3 does not have 100 pcnt kill accuracy.

First of all, there is no such thing as 100% in any system. Second, it's not required. Patriot launchers have 16 missiles each. Do you think they can only be fired one missile per target? If you have a 90% kill rate, firing two missiles at the target gives a very high probability of a kill every time.

First think this.
Why usa would not give awacs, but yes sell PAC-3s?

PAC-3 is a purely defensive system. As such, it is less restricted wrt exports.

India was permitted Phalcon. If that's not good enough, you have three options:

1. Buy a Russian system
2. Develop something better
3. Do without

 

[highsea]

...usa may have a sanction regime but that does not matter as long as we can get transfer of technology and source codes9we can then even reverse engineer the system)

That would be a huge mistake (reverse engineering). And the US will not release source codes for PAC-3 to anyone, so forget about that. Do you think we are stupid?

 

[srirangan]

Wait. Don't answert that! /kiddin..

 

[aaaditya]

well you know india can just use the patriot system to develop the aakash missile and by the way why would reverse engineering be a mistake(china has done it relatively successfully)

 

[srirangan]

well you know india can just use the patriot system to develop the aakash missile and by the way why would reverse engineering be a mistake(china has done it relatively successfully)

Breach of trust and agreements.

 

[keshto patel]

Rubbish. Patriot can be used against conventional missiles and aircraft, as has been proven. Patriot went 8 for 9 in OIF, and the 9th was only considered not to be a kill because it didn't destroy the warhead. The missile was still hit and sent off course so it missed it's target.
First of all, there is no such thing as 100% in any system. Second, it's not required. Patriot launchers have 16 missiles each. Do you think they can only be fired one missile per target? If you have a 90% kill rate, firing two missiles at the target gives a very high probability of a kill every time.
PAC-3 is a purely defensive system. As such, it is less restricted wrt exports.

India was permitted Phalcon. If that's not good enough, you have three options:

1. Buy a Russian system
2. Develop something better
3. Do without

For indians to spend billions to buy missile shooters to work against conventional ones is stupid. The whole idea was to get safe from pakistan's nukes.

The hefty price does not justify we shoot conventional missiles.
If PAC-3 was a panacea even for US, they would not be thinking of star war type scenario.

Bottom line for indians, if they are not 100 pcnt safe against nuke strike then these billions can be better spent on other agenda/items.

US outspend russians and made them broke, its India's time now. Unless they act smart, they would give away their billions for nothing.

Its a american ploy!

 

[keshto patel]

for heavens sake kesho give me the name of one system which gives you the guarantee that there will be no mushroom cloud.
usa may have a sanction regime but that does not matter as long as we can get transfer of technology and source codes9we can then even reverse engineer the system)
if we go by your argument india should give up all the gps system available to its millitary since they are all controlled by usa and can be jammed by the usa in the event of a war.:coffee

Talking abt sanction, the last time I remember was couple of helicopters and some harrier jump jets which were lying as junk due to USA not supplying spares.

Same scenario applies here. Learn from past mistakes or experience man.
USA is out to destablise indians, its their goal.

 

[keshto patel]

well you know india can just use the patriot system to develop the aakash missile and by the way why would reverse engineering be a mistake(china has done it relatively successfully)

China is different, its strong country which shows the middle finger to USA anytime it wants to. It is the only country which has threatened nuke strikes on Los angles ( year-95 ), yet US did nothing.

India is fractured from within, and they are timid, because they dont have VETO.

 

[highsea]

For indians to spend billions to buy missile shooters to work against conventional ones is stupid. The whole idea was to get safe from pakistan's nukes.

How will you know what type of warhead is in the missile? Incidentally, it's not billions, it's millions. Lot's of them, but still millions.

The hefty price does not justify we shoot conventional missiles.
If PAC-3 was a panacea even for US, they would not be thinking of star war type scenario.

Nobody said it was a panacea. It's only one component of an integrated system. So when the missiles are heading for downtown Delhi, General Keshto would say "Let that one go boys, it's not a nuke, and I don't want to waste a million dollar missile on it"?

Bottom line for indians, if they are not 100 pcnt safe against nuke strike then these billions can be better spent on other agenda/items.

No one in today's world is 100% safe against a nuke strike. You might as well get use to that.

US outspend russians and made them broke, its India's time now. Unless they act smart, they would give away their billions for nothing.

Its a american ploy!

India needs to assess India's defense needs. If PAC-3 makes sense based on the threats that India faces, then it's worth having. If it doesn't make sense, it's not worth it.

China is different, its strong country which shows the middle finger to USA anytime it wants to. It is the only country which has threatened nuke strikes on Los angles ( year-95 ), yet US did nothing.

What do you think the US should have done? Get all excited about some posturing by a Chinese general? China is quite capable of assessing the capabilities of the US, I don't think they are going to do anything stupid at this point in the game.

 

[keshto patel]

How will you know what type of warhead is in the missile? Incidentally, it's not billions, it's millions. Lot's of them, but still millions.
Nobody said it was a panacea. It's only one component of an integrated system. So when the missiles are heading for downtown Delhi, General Keshto would say "Let that one go boys, it's not a nuke, and I don't want to waste a million dollar missile on it"?
No one in today's world is 100% safe against a nuke strike. You might as well get use to that.
India needs to assess India's defense needs. If PAC-3 makes sense based on the threats that India faces, then it's worth having. If it doesn't make sense, it's not worth it.

What do you think the US should have done? Get all excited about some posturing by a Chinese general? China is quite capable of assessing the capabilities of the US, I don't think they are going to do anything stupid at this point in the game.

Its time u did yr maths:

Many TMD systems that the United States is developing today also were included in GPALS: THAAD and its GBR-T radar, the Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC-3), and some form of the Medium Extended Air Defense System. The GPALS price tag for those systems: $12 billion in today’s dollars. The current estimate for just THAAD and PAC-3 is more than $20 billion and is likely to rise further. Likewise, the time it will take to deploy those systems has expanded significantly from the original timelines assumed for them in GPALS.

a flight test that pits a single interceptor against a single missile costs $80-100 million, including all the pretest and post-test activities and analysis. Even the modest flight-test program planned for the NMD system will require $1.5-2 billion—a sum that would make any program manager look hard for alternatives.

mod edit: highsea: Off topic portion deleted. Read the rules.

 

[highsea]

Its time u did yr maths:

Many TMD systems that the United States is developing today also were included in GPALS: THAAD and its GBR-T radar, the Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC-3), and some form of the Medium Extended Air Defense System. The GPALS price tag for those systems: $12 billion in today’s dollars. The current estimate for just THAAD and PAC-3 is more than $20 billion and is likely to rise further. Likewise, the time it will take to deploy those systems has expanded significantly from the original timelines assumed for them in GPALS.

Wow, that would be great if India was to pay for the ENTIRE DEVELOPMENT COSTS! Gee, I guess we should have charged more when we sold them to the Netherlands and Japan for $3.2 Million per battery. And we better call Taiwan right away, because they are only paying $3.02 Million per battery.

a flight test that pits a single interceptor against a single missile costs $80-100 million, including all the pretest and post-test activities and analysis. Even the modest flight-test program planned for the NMD system will require $1.5-2 billion—a sum that would make any program manager look hard for alternatives.

Apparently you don't know the difference between PAC-3 and the NMD land based interceptor referenced above. I think you need to do a little more homework.

On china:

Here is senior chavez of venezuela who showed a middle finger to bush and called him an asshole, and there was assasination plan started by CIA.

Sadam said to get away from dollars to euro, he gets bombarded.

Antonio noriega, same shik.

Chile, vietnam, nicaragua, haiti, grenada what not....
Why so?

Because they dont have nukes and they are weaklings.
Dont you know yr country's foreign policy ?

Yes I do, but that's not the topic here. The topic is PAC-3 to India, and if you wander again, I will delete your entire post without further warning. I'm not going to waste my time chasing you around the board, understand?

I asked you to acquaint yourself with our rules, and apparently you ignored that. Be assured we do enforce them.

 

[keshto patel]

Wow, that would be great if India was to pay for the ENTIRE DEVELOPMENT COSTS! Gee, I guess we should have charged more when we sold them to the Netherlands and Japan for $3.2 Million per battery. And we better call Taiwan right away, because they are only paying $3.02 Million per battery.

Apparently you don't know the difference between PAC-3 and the NMD land based interceptor referenced above. I think you need to do a little more homework.

Yes I do, but that's not the topic here. The topic is PAC-3 to India, and if you wander again, I will delete your entire post without further warning. I'm not going to waste my time chasing you around the board, understand?

I asked you to acquaint yourself with our rules, and apparently you ignored that. Be assured we do enforce them.

Keep ur fookin forum baby, I am out.
I knew I touched the raw nerve of yours.
Write anything against americans, and revenge starts.
United States of ARROGANTS?

You dont have to ban me, I am gone.
There are plenty fish in the pond.

 

[aaaditya]

thank god for that there is only so much that can be explained to someone.
the only way some people would ever be 100% safe from nuke strike is by migrating to moon(not possible now) but by the time that becomes possible man will have the capability to launch nuke strike on moon.

by the way can someone tell me howmany launchers and missiles there are in a patriot battery or a regiment and those of other systems.(and if possible the area coverage of a pac3 missile battery) :coffee

 

[webmaster]

Talking abt sanction, the last time I remember was couple of helicopters and some harrier jump jets which were lying as junk due to USA not supplying spares.

Same scenario applies here. Learn from past mistakes or experience man.
USA is out to destablise indians, its their goal.

Why would US want an unstable India? What purpose does it serve in long term?