US Army News and updates general discussion

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
As an addendum, I neglected to mention that the aforementioned innermost layer of my proposed IAMD solution is essentially in the process of being developed under IFPC Inc 2-I, so what I am really talking about is a one for one replacement of existing Patriot launchers. That is to say that I see no reason why you couldn't keep existing/planned sensors like LTAMDS and integrate them with the new launchers. You'd have to think that at least some of the developmental risk has been reduced with the work done on existing fixed Aegis Ashore sites.

The one lingering question, to my mind, is "what becomes of PAC3?". My hunch is that, given their comparable dimensions, it ought to be possible to quad pack PAC3 into Mk41 cells just as ESSM rounds are today. All things considered, I view this as a good problem to have - better to have too many SAMs to choose from than too few! (arguably the current predicament).

Now all I need to do is take my proposal to the Pentagon and maybe package it with a revival of JLENS. Perhaps I will follow in the footsteps of certain of my fellow countrymen and do so under a shell company, then subcontract the work out to Raytheon/LM? :p ;)
 

Blackshoe

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
A recent discussion in the RAAF thread about the AIR6500 program led me to look into the current state of US GBAD, and it does look like there are some rather curious gaps in it that do not exist in the surface to air arsenal of, say, the USN. From what I can tell, the US currently has a GBAD set up that is well oriented toward defeating enemy BM barrages and aircraft (primarily fixed wing) but little else. In the context of a decades-long counter-insurgency campaign in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, it makes sense that this capability did not evolve in quite the same way as others.

With that said, the return to great power competition along with the proliferation of land-attack cruise missiles and small, low cost UAVs has, in my view, changed the way GBAD ought to be viewed and utilised by US forces. As a rough example, one might look at the Iranian Abqaiq attack as an indication of the emerging threat. From what I can glean, the facility in question was in fact being guarded by a Patriot battery alongside several antiquated Skyguard and Shahine (evolved Crotale) systems.

It is important to note that poor operating practices could well have been at play here, but I don’t think this eliminates the technical dimension entirely – an over-reliance on Patriot alone for C-UAS and C-LACM purposes strikes me as problematic, but US forces have little else to use in the hard-kill GBAD space.

Contrast the success of the Abqaiq attack with the utter failure of Houthi AShM launches on the USS Mason; on one hand you have a GBAD setup with only one effector capable of targeting the inbounds (Patriot) and on the other you have a vessel with multiple layers of available hard and soft kill measures that could be employed against the threat, with the results speaking for themselves. In the quest for a solution to the enemy LACM/UAV swarm problem, I would submit to you (my fellow DTers) that the USN has already found it.

As I said in the RAAF thread, I would posit that the hard-kill components of a future IAMD network could be built around a mobile “Aegis Ashore” system pairing the equivalent of a truck mounted ~4 cell Mk41 VLS with the needed supporting assets (control vehicles, LTMADS etc). This would immediately provide a wider range of hard-kill effectors (ESSM, SM2/3/6… maybe PAC3?) capable of hitting the full range of air breathing and ballistic targets. Most importantly, it would also open up the possibility of pairing long range SAMs like SM6 with airborne sensors to hit targets below the radar horizon (LACM) at extended range, providing much needed reaction time and engagement options. In many ways it is a shame that the US JLENS program died the way it did, as a functioning system might be very useful to this end today. The only thing missing here would be the innermost layer (CIWS-analogue), which could include a mobile SPAAG using a combination of Millenium Gun-esque fragmenting/proximity fuzed 30mm+ ammunition & Stinger, and/or one of the laser based solutions currently being explored in the US and/or the MML + MHTK concept being tested in recent years (useful for C-RAM too).

Please note I have deliberately left soft kill measures out of this because I feel the EW space is vast enough to warrant an entirely separate conversation. Suffice it to say that systems like LMADIS strike me as being just as, if not more important in providing protection to deployed forces, especially against UAV attack. I hope this is not straying too far into the realms of fantasy land as I am trying to view this through the lens of what-comes-after-Patriot. In this context I posit that simply adapting existing and planned naval surface to air systems to GBAD might actually provide a very suitable and flexible solution, without the expense of developing a completely clean-sheet design(s) from scratch.

Interested to hear the thoughts of others on this!
So, I have a lot of thoughts that I'll try and hammer together at some point on this. I should caveat up front I am not on expert on ground-based air defense...however, I'm willing to say I'm an expert on AEGIS.

I think I can make a couple quick points:
1) I am not confident that an AEGIS Ashore-like system is a great answer against UAV swarms
2) I am also not sure the Battle of the Red Sea (ie the MASON engagement) is an example of complete success

I'll try and hammer my thoughts together, later.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
So, I have a lot of thoughts that I'll try and hammer together at some point on this. I should caveat up front I am not on expert on ground-based air defense...however, I'm willing to say I'm an expert on AEGIS.

I think I can make a couple quick points:
1) I am not confident that an AEGIS Ashore-like system is a great answer against UAV swarms
2) I am also not sure the Battle of the Red Sea (ie the MASON engagement) is an example of complete success

I'll try and hammer my thoughts together, later.
Well I freely admit I am an expert on neither, so I'd be I interested to hear your take.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
FWIW I do think expensive SAM systems of any kind are a sub-optimal solution against drone swarms and was proposing land based ESSM Blk II/SM2 IIIC/SM6 IB primarily for their flexibility and utility against other air breathing targets like low flying LACM, larger UAS, fixed wing air etc. especially when employed over-the-horizon via datalink with an elevated (JLENS) or airborne sensor (ala NIFC-CA).

I suspect there are more practical methods of dealing with drone swarms ranging from EW based approaches to directed energy weapons and even SPAAGs using proximity fuzed/frag ammunition.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
PrSM program update

1. The US Army has invested more than US$1 Billion for developing and test next-generation, long-range precision-strike missile designed for the Precision Strike Missile (PrSM) program, which has a range of 499 km. The new system is designing to counteract the possible threat in Eastern Europe and Asia, including defeating enemy warships. PrSM will also be smaller than ATACMS, allowing 2 missiles to fit on existing US Army’s tracked MLRS and US Marine Corps HIMARS.
2. The US Army identified PrSM as a priority and has accelerated the missile’s acquisition schedule to provide an early capability in fiscal year 2023.

3. The multi-mode seeker was developed from the Land-Based Anti-Ship Missile program that began in 2015 to help the Army target enemy ships with its long-range precision fires capability. However, the US Army soon realized the seeker not only had the ability to track the radio signals of moving ships, but also land-based targets such as communications vans and the mobile radars of anti-aircraft defenses.

4. The capability gives the US Army the means to succeed in a difficult anti-access, aerial-denial environment, officials said. The use of multiple sensors also increases the ability to locate targets even without good coordinates.
 
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Terran

Well-Known Member
GM Defense sells Army on Chevy Colorado based Infantry Squad Vehicle.

Over the Years the DOD has trialed Colorado based vehicles for alternative fuel technologies.
These would be separate from the Light Support Service Vehicles which are based on Silverado, Tahoe, and Suburban.

Israeli Smart Shooter Smash to Smash UAS.
Other systems among the list.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Some of the M1s in Germany have started getting ERA tiles, along with APS. It will be interesting to see how the M1s continue to develop, as there doesn't seem to be a replacement on the horizon.

 

Terran

Well-Known Member
From a practical perspective Abrams and current Gen 3 MBT really haven’t been eclipsed yet. The so called gen 4 tanks are more or less gen 3 tanks with a few new gimmicks.
 

Ranger25

Active Member
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  • #269
Agreed, the venerable M1 continues to receive upgrades. Those M1A2 SEP 3s in Europe are part of the initial batch of 4 brigades to receive the Trophy APS. One forward deployed Brigade in Europe and 3 CONUS units will be the first to be upgraded. DOD expects to award further contracts for additional brigade sets soon.


 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
This article discusses the US Army’s latest patent, the smuzzle.

 

Ranger25

Active Member
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  • #271
The US Amy is moving forward with plans to field its first operational Directed Energy Line units. They will be Styker mounted 50KW lasers for counter drone and CRAM. Plans to follow on with larger truck mounted 300KW units large enough for CRAM and counter Cruise Missile missions will follow on. DE weapons continue to be a priority and will offer game changing magazine depths for defensive missions.


 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Three-seven disassemblings per month, over a period of five years, thats a lot. At least 180, and maybe more than 350 in total. They dont tell the reason (budget cuts?) and what will happen after disassembling (storage, export for a low price), but im sure there will be many countries interested in these retired AH-64Ds.

Edit: "Additional work scope includes minor repairs in order to maximise reuse of components for production of the AH-64E".
It can make production of new AH-64Es cheaper, but that also means that these new AH-64Es are not totally new at all. Big chance that some of them will get components which are repaired/refurbished or just 15-20 years old.
I also dont think that foreign costumers will appreciate receiving 'brandnew AH-64Es' polluted with old and used parts.
 
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Terran

Well-Known Member
Not really a big deal. If any country buys new Abrams tanks they are getting recycled hulls and turrets. Most of the AH64E started as a update of the AH64D (Originally called AH64D block III) a good portion of the orders are as such are likely upgrades. Those that aren’t upgrading existing fleets would have options but given the large existing fleet of such referbished is a normal practice especially since the buyers of such tend to be more budget tight than the large existing buyers.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
It would appear that my previously floated "mobile Aegis Ashore" concept might not be totally far fetched. Apparently the US is looking into using SM6 for land based applications:
...the Army could leverage what the Navy has already paid for and thoroughly tested for their land-based needs. What's more exciting is that with additional development dollars from the Army, a joint SM-6 program effort could greatly accelerate the ongoing development of the missile, especially in its new second-generation, larger form-factor configuration. There is even a real possibility the SM-6 could be adapted for air-launch as a very long-range air-to-air missile, as well as a land-attack and anti-ship weapon. This could make it truly a joint tri-service program. You can read all about the SM-6 and its capabilities here, and its next big evolution in this past feature of ours.

The idea that the Army could get a networked, precision land attack and anti-ship quasi-ballistic missile, and maybe even a long-range anti-air weapon, all in one package by adopting the SM-6 is undoubtedly a very attractive proposition. This is especially true for a service that is trying to find its way in a new strategic reality where air and sea capabilities seem to have stolen the stage. Land-based SM-6s and Tomahawks could also potentially use the same launch system as they were both designed around the naval Mk 41 vertical launch system's constraints.

Not clear as yet what the SM6 would be launched from, but an interesting development regardless.
 
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Ranger25

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My understanding is they will be used with some type of mobile TEL and not a fixed base as with the Aegis Ashore concept. Intent is to use existing tech (SM6 in this case) to more rapidly field technologies to fill gaps in the force structure. In this case discussion has been around potential multi use versions of the SM6 family of missiles for SAM as well as Ground strike missions from the mobile TELs
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Interesting in that there would seem to be at least some overlap with Patriot's existing role. That said I wonder if initial deployment may be in tandem with existing THAAD batteries. My guess is that the land-based SM-6 will be geared toward the most modern 21in' Block IB variant, which ought to complement THAAD rather well in the ABM role. IIRC THAAD covers an altitude range somewhere between 40 and 200km, but Patriot (PAC2 or 3) is not designed to engage MRBM or IRBM targets, and (AFAIK) won't provide a lower layer of protection against them. With SM-6 in the mix, it ought to be possible to defend against MRBM (DF-21) and IRBM (DF-26) both above 40km altitude (THAAD/THAAD-ER) and below it (SM-6).

The additional range and speed of the Block IB also make it interesting in the surface to surface role. If the mooted TELs are based on strike-length Mk41 VLS cells, I imagine you could marry it up with the mooted GLCM revival. Throw in ESSM for magazine depth and counter-LACM purposes and there are some compelling possibilities ahead indeed.
 
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cdxbow

Well-Known Member
I haven't seen this posted anywhere, using a howitzer with the Hypervelocity Projectile (HVP) to shoot down a cruise missiles. Pretty amazing.

 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I haven't seen this posted anywhere, using a howitzer with the Hypervelocity Projectile (HVP) to shoot down a cruise missiles. Pretty amazing.

I recall reading an article about HVP for 127 mm naval guns claiming the same capability but I don’t think there was any test data mentioned.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
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