URGENT- Syria and Israel

[Waylander]

You just have to look at Iraq and Afghanistan. Years after the wars the situation is more worse than ever before.
In most countries all over the world the simpathy for the USA dropped dramatically.

The regime in SK was really cruel and should be no example for a new government.
Free elections like in Germany and Japan would also not work because we never had this religious intention and most of the people were war-weary.

 

[merocaine]

There is no reasonable negotiation with terrorists. When are we going to accept that?

If we're not going to negotiate with Terrorists you better define what a Terrorist
is , Cause yeah would'ent want to end up negatiating with someone you should be killing instead.

 

[nuke_em]

down with hezbollah and the regimes that support it

israeli shouldnt have to negotiate with hezbollah or lebanon to release it soldiers the whole world should be on there side, israel has a natural right to defend herself and hezbollah should be dismantled and if israel needs to go to war because of this then i think its a good purpose

 

[merocaine]

israeli shouldnt have to negotiate with hezbollah or lebanon to release it soldiers the whole world should be on there side, israel has a natural right to defend herself and hezbollah should be dismantled and if israel needs to go to war because of this then i think its a good purpose

Ok but it works both ways, would Israel release the estimated 6000 to 7000 Palistinians held without trial in Israel? Men and women take from there homes for suspected crimes against Israel. And would you support a war to win their release?

 

[Waylander]

That's exactly the problem. It is not pure good against evil.
The problem there is much more difficult than some people here think.

 

[atilla]

ı agree

That's exactly the problem. It is not pure good against evil.
The problem there is much more difficult than some people here think.

ı agree waylander one more tıme problem ıs deep and seems unsolvable ın my opınıon syrıa can not even thınk replıyıng ısrael ın mılıtary bases so ı thınk hızzbullah or what ever wıll get wilder and thıs wıll keep the sutıatıon more hot ı agree ısraelıes has rıght to defend theır cıtıes but ı also agree lebanesee has rıght to be free .also ı read ın turkısh news paper called hurrıyet ısraelı forces used some chemical weapons made from kınd of fosfor actualy ı hope ıt ıs not true the and after all ırans posıtıon wıll be powerfull syrıa could lose so egypt and jordan and also saudıes after all thıs Irans posıtıon wıll be stronger than before how ı asume ı look a bıt hıstory .. But thıs wont also brıng peace wıll brıng long war to the regıon ı dont thınk UN or other ınternatıonal comunıty could or want to stop because from theır poınt of vıew there ıs no poınt for stopıng thıs could also effect lıke a chaın to saudıes and more cıvıl war ın ıraq also maybe a bıt more crashes betwenn şia ıraqıes and sunni

 

[Rich]

:smash

You just have to look at Iraq and Afghanistan. Years after the wars the situation is more worse than ever before.
In most countries all over the world the sympathy for the USA dropped dramatically.

The regime in SK was really cruel and should be no example for a new government.
Free elections like in Germany and Japan would also not work because we never had this religious intention and most of the people were war-weary.

Worse??? Worse then Saddam at the helm of a vast arsenal, including WMDs and on the threshold of nukes, attacking his neighbors, nerve gassing and torturing his own, and harboring his dreams of being the next Nebuchadnezzar?.................Worse?

And Afghanistan? Worse? Is the place still a vast terrorist training camp with a deranged sympathetic Taliban Govt still in power? Is the regions still an unchecked Al Qaeda recruiting and financing center?....Worse? Aren't thousands of the buggers now either dead or in a cage?

I dont understand why westerners always find a way to say either they are wrong ,or losing, or both. Most of all if America is involved. And "sympathy from other nations" is irrelevant. World media is to biased against us and the worlds people are generally to simple minded to form unbiased opinion. Its like the kid everyone doesnt like, even tho most dont know him. They say they dont like him even tho they dont know why they dont like him. It makes them "fit in" with the others.

I would also place the military machines of WW-ll Japan and Germany to be a far bigger problem then the current one of terrorism and terror supporting states. I suggest you get your facts before making such statements about "things being worse".

 

[Sea Toby]

I read somewhere a long time ago over 35 million people died during World War II. 35 million! Even if all of the population of Lebanon were wiped out, every one killed, it would only be a fraction of what the deaths were during WWII.

The radical Muslims have in the past targeted Americans, including thousands in our largest city. I have yet to read where the Israelis have done the same. The radical Muslims decide to attack Israel, complain about an inappropriate response, and expect us to feel sorry for them. If you wanted sympathy from us, you should never have targeted us!

Jordan and Egypt have signed peace treaties with Israel. I don't see Israel stiking back at them. If you don't want Israel to strike back, sign a peace treaty and be done with warfare once and for all. Its really that simple.

And yes, the Sunni Muslims are taking notice of the radical Shiites Muslims. The situation in Iraq has changed 100 percent. A couple of years ago the Sunnis were attempting to overthrow the Shiites majority. The Shiites have won political control of Iraq. But somehow their hatred of the Sunnis have overwhelmed them, they now don't want a democracy as much as they want a Shiites state.

What is wrong with democracy? No western thinking person can understand any reason why.

 

[webmaster]

Wrong. The Israeli soldiers were INSIDE Lebanon border and that maybe the reason they were captured and their crossing basically set things off which led to attacks either side and on other soldiers inside Israel.

As I told another poster earlier in this thread.

As far as the situation at the ground is concerned, if all countries (their people) learn to respect and trust each other and not just demand respect and trust for themselves only then true peace can be accomplished in middle east as well as else where for that matter.

If the world powers truely wants peace then they should widthdraw support for all parties involved and let them fight it off, if thats what they really want.

Sea Toby,
How do you compare dead lebanese civlians with those that died in world war 2?

 

[baseline]

I honestly beleive the only solution to problems between Israel and her neighbours is to totaly close off the borders between israel and her arab neigbours. Both sides clearly hate each other and they wont be able to co-exist together for a long time. To much history of violence and destruction that each side blames the other for.

Build a large wall that is guarded by an international force with shoot to kill orders if any body tries to cross on either side. Deploy an extensive anti missile shield like the skyguard sytem. on the wall to intercept any missiles / artillery fired in any direction. or aircraft flying etc etc. The missle shield wont be 100% successful but its should stop most attacks. Probably need a system to stop tunnelling as well.

The holy sites that are valued by both religions would again be locked down by the international force and no one is allowed to enter. Rather they are preserved for a better time where the two sides can live in peace. even if it takes 50 years. If that means wall off a major part of Jerusalem so be it.

if you have deploy warships in the med to stop boats trying to enter israel or arab territory then do it.

The palistininans and lebanese can trade and get jobs with their arab neighbours. No more jobs etc in Israel.

Seriously if they cant live next to each other its time to just totally seperate them. no border crossings nothing.

It might cost the international community a huge amount of money but whats the alternative, both sides will just keep killing each other and that costs huge amounts anyway, in lost life and bogus peacekeeping missions that never solve anything. Maybe after 50 or 100 years they can reopen the borders.

I think sooner or later if the international community doesnt do something drastic like the above extreme solution the israel vs arabs thing is going to set off world war 3.

 

[Waylander]

Ok, most people of the world are simple minded just because they don't agree with every US action?
It is so simple.
Ten thousands of Iraqi civilians died till the beginning of the war with many people dieing every day. The infastructure is still in a bad shape.
I agree that Saddam was a bastard and it is good that he has been removed but the US had no real strategie for the time after the main fights.
The same with Afghanistan.
The attacks on western Soldiers and their supportes are increasing. Just some days ago 400 Taliban attacked some police stations. 400!!!
The fighting in A-stan becomes more and more intense.
For example the Bundeswehr have had to deal with much more attacks just in the first half of this year than in the last years together.

BTW, how many WMDs have been found in Iraq?

This is the last post of me about this topic because it is getting really off-topic.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

You just have to look at Iraq and Afghanistan. Years after the wars the situation is more worse than ever before.

Afghanistan is actually in a much better state than Iraq - plus it's actually moving forward. Under the Taleban it was in a decaying state, with no hope of improving - because the religious nutters hated technology.

The south isn't very safe, but then again the north wasn't safe either during the Taleban years. Relatively few Afghanis want to go back to how things were before the Taleban were kicked out.

What I would like to see is Germans supporting the use of German troops for peacekeeping more, rather than use guilt over something that happened 60 years ago to avoid sending them to Lebanon. Seriously I thought the comments about the grandchildren of Holocaust perps squaring off against grandchildren of survivors was pure BS. That is so unlikely to happen it's not even worth thinking about.

Besides, sometimes when you really f**k up, the best way to make up for it is to do difficult and selfless things. The British didn't have the best record in Africa, yet we went back into Sierra Leone and turned an evacuation into a full military deployment that helped the government stop the rebels and milita gangs, reimpose lawful control and thus start a re-building project.

What we need is Germany helping more with peacekeeping, rather than guilt-tripping itself. Make up for past failings by helping people build a brighter future (in this case the Lebanese).

Oh, by the way, no offence is meant to Waylander or anyone else. But I think Germany should face the past with determination and resolution to help those in need, not guilt in using its armed forces.

 

[Rich]

Ok, most people of the world are simple minded just because they don't agree with every US action?

Nope, I would hazard its because of lack of education and tyrannical Governments that control their access to the media and information. An example of the second is the brilliant, educated, Christian, Democratic Germany before Hitler took power and then after. Look what the Nazi propaganda machine was able to accomplish in a first world country, let alone what such a machine could accomplish in an uneducated, 3rd world one. Nations that still primarily function under tribal systems.

Also, on a more practical note, "America conspiracy" fodder and negativism sells newspapers, air times, commercial space, and gives other Govt.'s a convenient scapegoat to take the wrath of their peoples off of them. You see a smaller example of this in the MidEast where the subhuman, long-nosed/big-eared, money-grubbing, Jew is blamed for all the evils in the world. Most of all the failures of Islamic societies to meet the needs of their people. I call it the Arab "blame the big nosed Jew campaign".

Ten thousands of Iraqi civilians died till the beginning of the war with many people dieing every day. The infastructure is still in a bad shape.

How does that compare to the million burial shrouds for his soldiers alone in his wars of conquest? And who knows how many civilians! Then add the many thousands of Kurds and Shiite woman and kids nerve gassed, bombed, tortured to death, shot, raped and quartered, dropped in acid..................:sleepy2 And the reason the infrastructure is in bad shape is thet despite countless billions poured into the place by America terrorists are still attacking it. Forgot to mention them eh?

I agree that Saddam was a bastard and it is good that he has been removed but the US had no real strategie for the time after the main fights.

Nope, we had a strategy just not a sound enough one. BTW my crystal ball doesn't work either and does it all mean we should have left Saddam in power? Had our "so called" allies not stopped us we would have removed him in '91. As to Afghanistan how long did it take for Democracy and prosperity to take root in West Germany post-Hitler? Or dont the Afghanis deserve a chance? Good thing we stood firm against communism and never gave up on East Germany eh?

The attacks on western Soldiers and their supportes are increasing. Just some days ago 400 Taliban attacked some police stations. 400!!!

Wow.....400? In 2001 they could field a fighting force of 40,000. I'd say there has been a reduction in recruiting stations and benefits.

The fighting in A-stan becomes more and more intense.

Are you posting from in-country? Are you a soldier there? Please post your sources. I dont really understand your end strategy anyways ans suspect this is all just part of your "just say no to Bush" campaign.

BTW, how many WMDs have been found in Iraq?

Whats that got to do with anything here? "But I knew it was going to come up". maybe you should go back to post-Gulf-1 and ask why we allowed Saddam to spend over ten years shuffling his WMD weapons about, obstructing/threatening inspectors, violating 16 UN resolutions, violate the cease fire agreements to many times to count...ect What were to do after all that? Pass a 17th resolution and then start believing him?

I think I'll leave the thread too. I see this currently conflict as the same one replayed thru history on a VHS tape on auto-rewind. And we are making the same mistake that brought disaster and pain on us before. Frankly I'm tired of talking about it.

 

[radiosilence]

this ^ is the kind of neocon rhetoric has gotten us in the iraq and afgan situation we are in. i wonder if these people ever serve in the military who are beating the drums all the time?



p.s. do you want to list the countries violating UN resolutions?

 

[Rich]

this ^ is the kind of neocon rhetoric has gotten us in the iraq and afgan situation we are in. i wonder if these people ever serve in the military who are beating the drums all the time?

Yes, four years , 18 mos in the mideast, and on my 24'th as a Policeman in a major US city. I am no stranger to fear, gunfire, and violence.

But my apologies to the group for getting overly political here. For that reason, and because I have no interest in flame wars, I am leaving the thread.

 

[radiosilence]

just expressing my opinion like you were.

 

[webmaster]

Lets get back to the topic folks, SYRIA and ISRAEL!

 

[Zaphael]

Some how i feel that the entire western interpretation to the conflict in the middle east is a little off.

Why is the Hezbollah, Hamas, etc fighting Israel? Why do the arabs hate Israel? I feel that the west have often been unable to see the logic since they are always peering out of the "state to state" basis window.

This is not a "War" between nations, but a war between tribes. While you can resolve a conflict between states by resolving the differences and disagreements, its difficult to do so the conflict "tribal" in nature. IMO, the arab nations view Israel (jews) and the USA (majority christian) to be an external tribe trying to meddle in their affairs.

Will Israel and Syria go to war? I don't think Israel would want a war with Syria if they have no extensive plans in occupying them. Similarly in Lebanon, unless there is a way to "occupy" the territories, they would probably limit their ground action.

Of course, sooner or later, once Israel withdraws from Lebanon, the same nonsense will start again. Missiles, and advanced weaponry will be delivered to Hezbollah again. New members will be added over to the "hezbollah" cause. Many of them probably kin of those who died in this recent campaign. And unless there is a Regime change in the Syrian govt, Hezbollah would continue to recieve aid, funding, training, and weapons from them.

 

[pshamim]

What the actual truth is does not appear on the Western Press. There is a lot of spinning going on.

Many may not know but the truth is that Israeli troops were not kidnapped from Israel but from the Labanese territory. The UN resolution which calls for disbanding of Hizbullah also requires Israel to vacate Lebanese territory which is still being occupied by them.

CNN and others are truly embedded or are in bed with US Administration and Israelis. So there is no hope of any true reporting.

 

[Grand Danois]

CNN and others are truly embedded or are in bed with US Administration and Israelis. So there is no hope of any true reporting.

There is plenty of critical press in the West.

It's just that the primary source for "the Lebanese side of the border" argument is Al-Manar ie Hezbollah.