UK Military Vehicle Purchases for Iraq / Afghanistan

[riksavage]

The link at the foot of this thread provides a summary of recent UK Military upgrades, specifically the 'Vector' and 'Mastiff' wheeled armoured troop transports for Iraq and Afghanistan (photos included). The Mastiff is a derivative of the Cougar as used by the USMC in Iraq. The photo of the Mastiff shown in the article clearly shows additional armour plate has been added to the sides, which whilst providing added protection appears to restrict access to the drivers cab.

I would be interested to hear how the Mastiff and Vector compares to similar vehicles such as the Bushmaster with regards to protection and performance.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...ForIraqAndAfghanistanPutThroughTheirPaces.htm

 

[riksavage]

I note the UK has put out a urgent requirement for up to 180 Medium protected vehicles to bridge the gap between the Mastiff 6 x 6 Heavy and Pinzgauer Vector 6X6 Light protected vehicles for use in Afghanistan / Iraq, in-service date 2009. The selected vehicle will be an off-the-shelf purchase, and must not weigh more than 14-Tonnes and be able to support a crew of seven.

I’m trying to evaluate what are the best solutions on the market now, which meet the stated specifications and provide optimum protection – Bushmaster comes to mind. Interested to hear what choice of vehicle the forum would go for and why?

 

[Waylander]

One could also buy the long version of the Dingo 2. Up to eight passengers, RWS with 7.62mm GPMG, 12.7mm HMG or 40mm AGL and a nice mine/IED protection. Protection against 7.62mm AP. In use with Germany, Belgium and Austria with the US and Israel considering to buy some of them.

There are also several interesting vehicles from South Africa (Like Casspir) and the US (M117 ASV).

How much do they want to pay?

And what is the gap they talk about?
In the end it looks like the Mastiff is exactly in the specifications of a mine protected vehicle with less than 14 tons and a crew of min. seven.

 

[swerve]

One could also buy the long version of the Dingo 2. Up to eight passengers, RWS with 7.62mm GPMG, 12.7mm HMG or 40mm AGL and a nice mine/IED protection. Protection against 7.62mm AP. In use with Germany, Belgium and Austria with the US and Israel considering to buy some of them.

There are also several interesting vehicles from South Africa (Like Casspir) and the US (M117 ASV).

How much do they want to pay?

And what is the gap they talk about?
In the end it looks like the Mastiff is exactly in the specifications of a mine protected vehicle with less than 14 tons and a crew of min. seven.

The Mastiff (Force Protection Cougar 6x6) has a max. weight of 52K lb, i.e. 23.6 tons, & a "curb weight" of 38K lb, or 17.2 tons.
http://www.forceprotection.net/models/cougar/specs/cougar6x6_spec.pdf
Even the Cougar 4x4 is over the 14 ton ceiling.

The Dingo 2 does fit the spec - http://www.kmweg.com/gb/Dingo ENG.pdf

 

[Waylander]

Ah thanks, I stand corrected.

I accidently looked at the Cougar H and than at the empty weight. :crazy

 

[Boertjie]

Hi guys
Being a South african, I would think they aught to look at the RG31/RG32 series of APC's. These are build by BAE Land systems division - Alvis OMC in south Africa, and have proven themselves numerous times in Irak and Afganistan, with Canadian and US forces currently deployed there. Similar APC's have been in operation with the old SADF in Angola and have shown there worth in battle many a time. Check the specs on the BAE OMC site: ...baesystemsomc...

 

[riksavage]

The UK has recently placed an ‘urgent operational requirement’ order for 32 Pandur 6x6 vehicles, which I believe falls into the required weight restriction (only just). The government has confirmed this is not part of the FRES project.

Concerning FRES the UK government has now dropped the C130 lift requirement and now changed the spec to A400 lift capable. Based on recent experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan there is no way a suitable vehicle of the right weight could be found, which could be also be carried in a C130. Update below:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2007/05/future-combat-systems-in-the-crosshairs/index.php

 

[Super Nimrod]

What happened to the JCB HMUV that was announced last year ? I understood that once armoured that would be in this weight category ? Not seen or heard anything since. They would certainly have the productive capacity if they had the machine available

 

[buglerbilly]

The UK has recently placed an ‘urgent operational requirement’ order for 32 Pandur 6x6 vehicles, which I believe falls into the required weight restriction (only just). The government has confirmed this is not part of the FRES project.

Would you care to give me a link to that statement?

I cannot see a single reason why the UK would order PANDUR 1 or 2. Neither meet any UOR or whatever that I am aware of..........IF the UK did go for this category of vehicle they would be far more likely to go for a LAV IV if not LAV V.............even LAV III/STRYKER is unlikely and Pandur II does not match III.

Regards,

BUG

 

[riksavage]

25 April 2007 JDW:
Article: "Full Padur II Production Commences For Portugal"
Author: Christopher F Foss

Mentions the following: Pudur responding to an urgent requirement to supply 32 6x6 Pandur Vehicles for delivery within one year. The Pandurs are destined for an undesclosed application unrelated to the 8x8 utility variant of FRES.

 

[buglerbilly]

Mentions the following: Pudur responding to an urgent requirement to supply 32 6x6 Pandur Vehicles for delivery within one year. The Pandurs are destined for an undesclosed application unrelated to the 8x8 utility variant of FRES.

"Responding" means they may be BIDDING for an UOR tender, NOT supplying against a signed contract, which does not appear on any of the MoD's websites...........

 

[riksavage]

my mistake, I fall on my sword!:shudder

 

[Alpha Epsilon]

So the summary for the additional armour purchase is like this:

180 Medium armoured vehicles - unknown which one (apparently the Piranha is a strong candidate)
166 Pinzgauer PPVs
124 FV432 Bulldog upgrades (plus another 376 or so FV432 upgraded without the additional armour)
108 Mastiff
21 BvS10

What about the long term? How will these purchases influence FRES? The BvS10 purchase will imo have no effect as these will be used "just" by the RMs and RA. Could the Mastiff in the end replace the Saxon? And what about the Pinzgauer? Will more FV432s be upgraded to Bulldog standard (that apparently is doing really well in Iraq) and they'll just serve on for another 15 years? What will the medium vehicle be? And what impact does this have on UK industry? The Pinzaguer, the FV432 and partly (the shells iirc) the BvS10 are produced in the UK respectively by Armour Holdings (soon to be BAE Systems), BAE Systems/ABRO and BAE Systems. The Mastiff is produced in the USA by Force Protection. BAE Systems in the UK has a licence to build Piranhas, is this an advantage to the Piranha?

 

[riksavage]

These vehicles are being paid for by the Treasury, not out of the MOD's exisiting budget apparently, however knowing Browne he will want to rob from Peter to pay Paul!

The latest requirement is for a 14 tonne vehicle along the lines of the BAE RG33. The UK military has recently visited the US Marines to look at what they have evaluated for a similar 'off the shelf' requirement to provide additional IED protected vehicles for use in Iraq/Afghanistan.

 

[buglerbilly]

The 21 x BvS10 Vikings are for WATCHKEEPER, the UAV programme see the original announcement below............

Further Viking Armoured Vehicle Buy will Protect UK Troops

02 May 2007 | Ref. 130/2007

Ornskolsvik, Sweden. - The UK Ministry of Defence has awarded BAE Systems a contract for an additional 21 BvS10 Viking armoured all-terrain vehicles. The UK's Royal Marine Commandos took delivery of an earlier batch of 108 in July 2003.

The BAE Systems Hägglunds armoured all-terrain vehicles will be used for transporting equipment for the Watchkeeper unmanned aerial vehicle. Production deliveries will commence second half of 2008 with prototype vehicles being delivered at the end of 2007.

The Viking was selected due to its high load capacity, protection and mobility. Hägglunds’ director for marketing and sales, Arne Berglund, says: “The performance, reliability and cost efficiency of the BvS10 is good news, both for the soldiers in the front line and the taxpayer.”

 

[Alpha Epsilon]

Yes. I think they'll be operated by the Royal Artillery. On a further note, Thales UK has now frozen the design for the Watchkeeper (based on the Elbit Hermes) UAV.

The BvS10 purchase will imo have no effect as these will be used "just" by the RMs and RA.

 

[buglerbilly]

The same UAV, the Hermes 450, has now been selected by Singapore as well of course.

Regards,

BUG

 

[riksavage]

The following link shows Vectors and Mastiffs deployed in theatre. The Mastiff has been heavily up-armoured when compared to the parent cougar vehicle with the addition of side armour and RPG screens.

http://www.defenceimagedatabase.mod...ELD11_GROUP=11&SF_FIELD11=&Submit=Search+now!

 

[riksavage]

The medium utility FRES variant to equip UK forces has now been reduced to the following three options:

• Piranha from General Dynamics
• The Boxer from German-Dutch consortium Artec
• VBCI from France's Nexter.

Trials to begin soon, selection of the winning design scheduled for later in 07.

Now the weight requirement has been increased, Boxer is back in the equation. Interested to hear from others which vehicle would be the most desirable, I for one would opt for Boxer followed by VBCI because both represent newer technology.

 

[buglerbilly]

I don't see anything in VBCI that puts it beyond Piranha/LAV IV which is the variant already tested in the UK. I'm almost certain LAV V couldn't make it in time?

BOXER's selection would be ironic indeed considering the UK pulled out of the damn programme to continue with FRES!!!