UAE Confirms Discussions With France On Purchase Of Rafale

[jtm]

According to the french press and several defense blogs here in France, UAE's Mirage2000-9 will be rebought by France who will...sell them to undefined buyers.
French Armée De l'Air (ADA) is not interested by these AC, indeed ADA's mirages are too different to the -9 to make it interesting. By the way the rafale is supposed to replace most of mirages at term...
You will ask, why buy them then...because Dassault has been unable to sell any mirage outside of France, and it's becoming critical for the whole program.

 

[ROCK45]

Mirages

Hi jtm
Are any of those articles and or Blogs in English? Do you know of any French aircraft sources that are always in English please list them, I'm always interested in hearing a different view.

Thanks

 

[jtm]

Hi ROCK45,

I'm sorry but I don't know any french military related blog in english, looks like we're not that interesting
By the way I desperatly tried to find an english source confirming the fact that france are gonna buy the 2000-9 to resell them in exchange of the rafale deal...
French press and blogs reporting this are, I think, reliable, so I tend to believe them. If I find any english confirmation I'll post it here for sure.

 

[ROCK45]

French

Thanks jtm for trying just wanted to get the French take on things if I could.

If it's true I wonder who the French would resell the Mirage 9's to I'm sure their fully operational with low air time on the frames. A friend told me the UAE use the Vipers more but I can't confirm that.

I suspect that Frances air force would keep a bunch for themselves. I would have to look it up but maybe they still have some F1 operational in a recon role or maybe some of their Mirage 2000-N are getting up on age and frame time and could use a replacement.

The bottom line is even if they eat them and take the loss they need to sell or move the new model period. If it were myself I would have sold a squadron at huge offset prices to get the product on the market. Sometimes you have take chances and invest in yourself. Frances Air Force could have always cut the numbers off the end of the production if need be. To me they had little to lose and more to gain to take the chance and get them out there.

Brazil or Greece would have been flying a squadron for two years or more now and getting tons of press coverage. Maybe it's just my way of thinking but that's what I would have done five years ago.

 

[jtm]

Over here the word is that the french army won't keep the planes : the -9 standard is apparently too different to the -5 and N to be efficiently and at low cost integrated to the ADA, especially because of the differences in avionics and software.
I must add that half of the -9 are actually old mirage2000SAD8, upgraded to the -9 standard.

So it's not interesting for the French ADA to keep it.

Rumors say that the PAF is interested in buying them, but it might be a little hot right now (politically maybe not the right time), so we should keep them in a hangar for a while.

At last, I must report here a rumor I've heard, with no proof at all. Some says that the french army is actually gonna keep the UAE -9s, and Dassault Aviation is gonna deliver the brand new rafale to the UAE Air Force BEFORE the French ADA.
I personnally can't believe it, for obvious political and strategical reasons, but...you never know.

 

[Crunchy]

Frenchs are desperatly looking for customer of their combat-aircrafts, but seriously the current economic crisis will make it very hard to gain some orders/deals. It will interesting to see where those Mirage 2000-9 are heading to - if they will be sold.
For me hopefully to the VPAF.

 

[ROCK45]

Mirages

Maybe a deal between Frances Total Co and Vietnam can be worked out. Gas platform, refineries, etc money to be made. If I'm not mistaking Frances Total Co are already in Burma and may be at other countries in the region as well?

The Mirage 2000-5's get over looked but are still capable fighters on many levels.

jtm do you think my idea of getting a offset price squadron of Rafale's out there for the world to see has any merit? It seems like such a capable fighter I can't understand why no sales.

Are MICA expensive? Compared to AA-12/AIM-120?

Can Rafale's mark their own targets yet?

 

[Crunchy]

I checked the media headlines today:

Vietnam's Prime Minister is currently in the UAE. A large business delegation is going with him, but also some military brass.

France's president Sarkozy is expected to visit Vietnam in second quarter of 2009.

This can't be a coincidence.

 

[jtm]

That's the point of the french government : finally sell a damn squadron to show the world the plane's good... To answer your question : selling high tech weapons such as a 4th generation fighter planes needs a strong diplomatic force, which france no longer has. Every time Dassault and the french government were close to a deal, the US came up with huge price cuts on F16s...especially just after the beginning of the war in 2003 (Rice said at the time Forgive Russia, forget Germany, Punish France. ).

The Rafale had not yet reached his full potential, since "F3+" standard is to be reached by 2012 (maybe later). France already ordered 286 Rafale : 228 for the ADA and 58 for the French Navy ; about 60 are actually operationnal today in the French military. They are engaged everyday in Afghanistan since early 2009, replacing the Mirages 2000D previously positioned there.

According to me France is desperate to sell Rafale for 2 main reasons :
- if this plane is not exported it will be the very last French fighter plane : loss of independance, loss of qualifications for the french military and aircraft industry.
- it causes an industrial problem : Dassault oversized the production plants, and the French government actually can't pay for all the planes Dassault could hypoteticaly deliver each year, so the plants run slow. Of course, it's never a good thing for the profitability of such a project to have factories running half time...


Over here the propaganda is very strong and clear : the Rafale is the best ever fighter plane (if you forget the F22). I'd be glad to read comments from people knowing what they are talking about and who are less biaised than french officials : is Rafale really competitive ? How is it seen out of France ?

Thanks for your opinions on the plane...

 

[swerve]

If it's true I wonder who the French would resell the Mirage 9's to I'm sure their fully operational with low air time on the frames. A friend told me the UAE use the Vipers more but I can't confirm that.

About half of the Mirage 2000-9s are upgraded older M2Ks, delivered from 1989, & were the main combat type for over ten years. I expect they have a fair few hours on them, though I'm sure they've been well maintained. The new-built M2K-9s were delivered from 2003.

If the UAE does buy Rafale, I would expect the old Mirage 2000EAD/-9 to be retired first. That would give them over 20 years in service, & the new -9s maybe 10 years, probably at lower average usage rates, by the time they're replaced. Any potential buyer would have to take account of the two batches having very different future service lives.

Buying the Qatari M2K-5s & bringing them all to the same standard might also be an attractive option.

 

[ROCK45]

Old Upgraded models

I had no idea that the UAE's Mirages were older upgraded models I assume all were built new. That should have a effect on their resale value and explain why the UAE want the new Rafale's.

France may have to eat the loses if bought back but getting something for them is better then nothing. Putting them in storage seems wrong some countries could make front line fighters out of them if the price were right.

If sold at low offset prices France might still get maintenance support contracts, spares, and weapons sales, so it wouldn't be a total loss. Beats deep storage or some French bone yard if they have one.

 

[swerve]

I had no idea that the UAE's Mirages were older upgraded models I assume all were built new. That should have a effect on their resale value and explain why the UAE want the new Rafale's.

Some of the UAEs Mirages are upgraded older models. The UAE bought 36 Mirage 2000 in the 1980s (first delivery 1989), & 32 Mirage 2000-9 later (first delivery 2003). It's upgraded 30 older Mirages.

At least 1 M2K-9 has been lost.

 

[jtm]

Hi everyone

I reactivate this thread since i've just read news on the topic.

The 13th of march the Koweiti prime minister and defense minister said that "Kuweit is looking forward to see rafales flying in its AF" (personal traduction).

Looks like 2009 might definitely be a good year for the rafale. IMHO, Kuweit won't buy rafales (or a few only), and will buy 2K9s from UAE AF, which will ease the deal between Dassault and the UAE gvt. But this is only an analysis, I'm open to contradiction

 

[Josef]

The Dassault Rafale is the best available fighter for UAE and even Kuwait.

It should discouraged Iran from violating Kuwaiti airspace and even the Persian gulf which UAE needs to secure.

Hope UAE purchase the Rafale.

 

[ROCK45]

Kuwait

Hi Josef
Does Iran violate Kuwait's airspace a lot? I wasn't aware of this do you know what types of aircraft Iran's violates Kuwait's with?

Thanks

 

[Aussie Digger]

Hi everyone

I reactivate this thread since i've just read news on the topic.

The 13th of march the Koweiti prime minister and defense minister said that "Kuweit is looking forward to see rafales flying in its AF" (personal traduction).

Looks like 2009 might definitely be a good year for the rafale. IMHO, Kuweit won't buy rafales (or a few only), and will buy 2K9s from UAE AF, which will ease the deal between Dassault and the UAE gvt. But this is only an analysis, I'm open to contradiction

Why is Kuwait looking to buy new fighters? Are they looking to add to it's existing fleet, based around the F/A-18C/D, or replace them?

Their F/A-18C/D's aren't all that old...

 

[swerve]

Keeping up with the Joneses? The UAE, Saudi Arabia & Oman are all buying or looking at new aircraft.

It's not a region famed for rational (in a purely military sense) procurement decisions.

 

[ROCK45]

UAE Rafale

I saw another article about the possibility of a Rafale sale to the UAE it seem more current then others.

Wanted to know if they got buyer for the Mirage 2000-5/9 fighters I looked but didn't see anything?

Regional wise is Kuwait looking for new fighters as well can't find a single thing about them wanting to replace the Hornets or even being displeased in their performance. France at one point was trying sell Rafale's there as well.

Does anybody know which fighter type the UAE uses more Block-60 Viper or Mirage 2000-9? Sorry for the basic question just always wanted to know that.

Thanks

Link to Rafale article
UPDATE 2-Dassault in talks with Emirates over Rafale jets | Reuters

 

[icekid]

France opened a base in UAE look Defence Aviation: French Military base in Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates

I went to see the open ceremony and from a distance I saw 5 rafales lined up... I have been reading in local newspapers that UAE officials are interested in Rafale... So I guess UAE will go for RAFALE

 

[ROCK45]

UAE/Rafale

Thanks icekid
I'm rooting for the Rafale to land it's first export sale they seem to have a real chance here.