UAE Confirms Discussions With France On Purchase Of Rafale

[SaudiArabian]

UAE confirms discussions with France on purchase of Rafale aircraft

Jun 5, 2008 - 11:10 -

Abu Dhabi, June 5th, 2008 (WAM) -The government of the UAE has confirmed that preliminary discussions have been held with the government of France on the potential purchase of a new generation of Rafale aircraft to replace the existing mirage fleet as of 2013.

WAM/MAB
http://www.wam.org.ae/servlet/Satel...124&pagename=WAM/WamLocEnews/W-T-LEN-FullNews

 

[ROCK45]

Found more - UAE eyes France's Rafale fighter

Good fine SaudiArabian
This is just what France need but now there may be a whole bunch of advance Mirage 2000-5/9s on the market, which doesn't happen everyday.


UAE eyes France's Rafale fighter

AFP - 1 hour 54 minutes ago

ABU DHABI (AFP) - The United Arab Emirates said on Thursday it was mulling replacing its fleet of French Mirage 2000 combat planes with the multi-role Rafale, which has yet to find an export market.
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"The UAE is seriously considering replacing its fleet of Mirage 2000 combat planes with the French new generation Rafale fighter starting in 2013," an official was quoted by the state WAM news agency as saying.

"Discussions on this issue are under way between the UAE government and France," he said.

The official did not give more details but the oil-rich Gulf country's purchase of the Rafale would be a major boost for Dassault Aviation's fourth-generation combat jet.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy immediately welcomed the announcement as "good news for France.

"The United Arab Emirates has been using French weaponry for a long time," he said in a statement. "They are looking at the Rafale to replace their fleet of 63 Mirage 2000 planes."

He said there was "no fixed dates, nor have commercial negotiations begun" but added that "discussions will be held in the coming weeks."

"In case a contract is signed, the first planes can be delivered from 2012 onwards."

Dassault are also makers of the Mirage 2000-9 combat planes, which the UAE bought in 1998.

Abu Dhabi purchased 30 Mirage 2000-9 in a 3.2-billion-dollar deal which included the modernisation of 33 other Mirages.

France is a leading military supplier to the UAE, which bought more than 400 Leclerc tanks from French firm GIAT in 1994.

During a visit by Sarkozy to Abu Dhabi in January, the two countries signed a deal under which Paris will set up its first permanent military base in the UAE.

The base will be set up in Abu Dhabi, the wealthiest and largest of the UAE's seven emirates.

It is due to become operational in 2009 and will eventually host 400-500 French army, navy and air force personnel, French officials have said.

"It will be the first such French base in the Gulf and it will face the Strait of Hormuz," the strategic waterway through which much of the world's oil supplies pass, a French presidential source said in January.

Abu Dhabi and Paris are linked by a 1995 defence pact under which their armed forces conduct regular joint manoeuvres in the UAE.

Dassault has yet to find a foreign buyer for the Rafale, which can carry out interception and reconnaissance missions as well as nuclear strikes. The French aerospace group is in talks with Libya over a possible sale.

Talks had taken place with Saudi Arabia on a possible deal, but the Gulf oil powerhouse eventually opted for Britain's Eurofighter jets.

Link
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/20080605/twl-uae-france-defence-3cd7efd.html

 

[SABRE]

Hmm .. just wondering. Would the deal prompt EF-2000 makers to make counter offer to UAE for the Eurofighter?

 

[ROCK45]

Offer

I assume the EF-2000 has been shopped around there before but according to the article the UAE seems like a French shop.

Those Mirage 2000-5/9 won't go cheap I wonder if any will get to South America?

Looking around the Gulf region a little at might be new aircraft buyers Kuwait's Hornets stand out a little. Maybe there happy with them but I don't recalled there being upgraded? Something to look up later but age wise Kuwait's Hornets are going in zone where new frames might be bought. They might be a EF-2000 customer down the road but Kuwait does have a mixture of weapons and suppliers.

 

[SABRE]

I assume the EF-2000 has been shopped around there before but according to the article the UAE seems like a French shop.

Those Mirage 2000-5/9 won't go cheap I wonder if any will get to South America?

Looking around the Gulf region a little at might be new aircraft buyers Kuwait's Hornets stand out a little. Maybe there happy with them but I don't recalled there being upgraded? Something to look up later but age wise Kuwait's Hornets are going in zone where new frames might be bought. They might be a EF-2000 customer down the road but Kuwait does have a mixture of weapons and suppliers.

P.A.F might be interested in them. Especially since the PAF pilots have flying hours on UAE's Mirage-2000/9. India can also be another party. However, I think UAE would be keeping its aircrafts.

 

[swerve]

P.A.F might be interested in them. Especially since the PAF pilots have flying hours on UAE's Mirage-2000/9. India can also be another party. However, I think UAE would be keeping its aircrafts.

Why? If already has more fighters than it can operate. What would be the point of buying more, & keeping the old aircraft sitting in hangars? Better to dispose of them for whatever they could fetch, or even pass them on to a friendly but poor country as a gift.

 

[ROCK45]

PAF pilots

SABRE
P.A.F might be interested in them. Especially since the PAF pilots have flying hours on UAE's Mirage-2000/9

Interesting I didn't know PAF pilots flew them I thought they were there in the support and maintenance fields. Do PAF pilots fly or service the Block-60 Vipers too? Jumping to a different country do PAF pilots fly Kuwait's Hornet's as well?

 

[SaudiArabian]

P.A.F might be interested in them. Especially since the PAF pilots have flying hours on UAE's Mirage-2000/9.

pardon me Sabre , do you have any evidence of this that there are any PAF's serving in UAE Air Force and flying these aircrafts ?

 

[radiosilence]

pardon me Sabre , do you have any evidence of this that there are any PAF's serving in UAE Air Force and flying these aircrafts ?

They have in the past, not sure if they currently do. I remember reading that the current ACM of the PAF served in the UAE Air Force as a fighter pilot instructor.

The likely destination of these planes will be Pakistan or India.

 

[ROCK45]

Mirage 2000-5/9

Would Greece be interested in picking up some of these fighters since they currently use the same type? They could support them and maybe save a little money picking up used frames instead of buying new? Buying 40 or so EF-2000s might cost more? I can't really figure out Greece if there really looking or not to purchase new fighters?

The other question I have is Greece's Mirage 2000-5 are mk2 types are the same or better then the UAE's Mirages? Thanks

 

[SABRE]

Interesting I didn't know PAF pilots flew them I thought they were there in the support and maintenance fields. Do PAF pilots fly or service the Block-60 Vipers too? Jumping to a different country do PAF pilots fly Kuwait's Hornet's as well?

Flew them is correct (if u mean in terms of serving). They were flying these machines earlier when they were purchased. Then trained the locals to fly them. However, many pilots from PAF are sent there for training on the UAE aircrafts regularly but they do not serve as their GDPs. There were/are also Egyptian pilots.

I knew this one pilot (haven't seen him in a long time) who flew both Mirage2000-9 and F-16E/F, but he too was not serving the UAE's air force.

I never heard of any PAF pilot who flew Kuwait's F-18. But some regularly did train on Saudi F-15s. Don't know about recent trend.

pardon me Sabre , do you have any evidence of this that there are any PAF's serving in UAE Air Force and flying these aircrafts ?

Wish I did. I only have my words. I have met few pilots who served there for a while till Locals were ready to fly them. Then they were hired back as instructors. There are still many full time employed Pakistani instructors there (last I checked).

Some of my contacts in the PAF mentioned about Mirage2000-9 and F-16E/F visiting PAF bases on regular basis in back in the 1990s (till the late 1990s). Usually it used to be two aircrafts with one flew by a Pakistani and another one by a local pilot - and sometimes (rarely) by an Egyptian pilot. I haven't heard of any visits in recent times.

Just for Info: The distance between Karachi and UAE is very short. Dubai and Sharjah are less than an hour away for a commercial airline. Same airline takes 2 hours to reach Islamabad (Pakistan's capital) from Karachi. So I am guessing that UAE air force used to train long flights over Pakistan.

------------
The problem with UAE is that there are more foreigners there than locals. 20% of Dubai's total population is of locals. Rest are from outside. For the military the major problem has been local recruitment. In 2006 there was a report of only 2 local boys joining the air force. I don't know if they have employed any motivational method to attract local boys. And don't know about the 2007 and 2008 recruitments.

 

[ROCK45]

Pakistan

SABRE going by what you said Pakistan personnel should know by actually flying both aircraft the specs of the radar and full knowledge of the weapons suite. Going further with this Pakistan personnel have had access to Vipers with ASEA radar's, wow I'm sure Lockheed isn't happy about that. Which means also information could be passed onto the Chinese as well? I'm not saying they did and knowing the capabilities of a radar doesn't mean you can build one I'm just saying it possible.

Do you know if UAE Mirages are rated better or the same as Greece's MK2? I'm looking around but not finding anything.

Thanks

 

[radiosilence]

Going further with this Pakistan personnel have had access to Vipers with ASEA radar's, wow I'm sure Lockheed isn't happy about that. Which means also information could be passed onto the Chinese as well?

As part of the F-16 E/F deal, UAE pilots and personnel will/are be trained in Tucson, Arizona.

 

[ROCK45]

Uae

I understand the UAE pilots and maintenance personnel being trained, it's there aircraft and they help finance the ASEA radar program but the Pakistan personnel? These aircraft could have landed in Pakistan and opened up for others to take a look around inside? China would would kill to get a chance to see a modern Block-60 Viper and early model ASEA radar, up close. China would be interested in the Mirage 2000-5/9 as well since Taiwan has a number of Mirage 2000-5s as well. This kind of information might have shaved off five ten years off there fighter and radar programs.

 

[radiosilence]

I understand the UAE pilots and maintenance personnel being trained, it's there aircraft and they help finance the ASEA radar program but the Pakistan personnel? These aircraft could have landed in Pakistan and opened up for others to take a look around inside? China would would kill to get a chance to see a modern Block-60 Viper and early model ASEA radar, up close. China would be interested in the Mirage 2000-5/9 as well since Taiwan has a number of Mirage 2000-5s as well. This kind of information might have shaved off five ten years off there fighter and radar programs.

We have very strict Export Controls which monitors exported equiptment. Why would the UAE risk the US ire by allowing unauthorized access?

 

[SABRE]

SABRE going by what you said Pakistan personnel should know by actually flying both aircraft the specs of the radar and full knowledge of the weapons suite. Going further with this Pakistan personnel have had access to Vipers with ASEA radar's,wow I'm sure Lockheed isn't happy about that. Which means also information could be passed onto the Chinese as well? I'm not saying they did and knowing the capabilities of a radar doesn't mean you can build one I'm just saying it possible.

Lockheed never raised a voice but US congress did. However, matter was resolved in favor of PAF. Search on google may be you find something. I did find an article on it long time back.

Do you know if UAE Mirages are rated better or the same as Greece's MK2? I'm looking around but not finding anything.

Thanks

I don't think there would be any significant difference between the two's ratings. But some say M2K9 is better.

NOTE: Mirage2000-9 was first drawn for PAF with high ranking PAF officials in presence. I think it was designated as M2K5P first than M2K9P since PAF was also thinking of adding other foreign gadgets (other than French0. But the aircraft came out to be expensive and the deal French produced on paper did not favor PAF in long run. The deal was later offered to UAE with further changes in the plan. UAE approved of it. PAF officials were still working on the plans (but now for UAE) thats how PAF pilots became one of the firsts to have flew these machines. (Do google on this; there was an article on this as well)

 

[Crunchy]

Hi,

hope you guys don't mind when I revive this thread.

I just want to add a potential user for UAE's relatively young Mirage 2000-9:

the Vietnamese People's Air Force

Why?

- in 1979 Vietnam's "northern fighter regiments" had no strike capabilites to stop the advancing Chinese forces > bitter lesson
(The ex-South Vietnamese A-37s were already occupied in Cambodia with the Red Khmer.)

- still today VPAF's strike squadrons - 60 Sukhoi Su-22M4 - are all stationed on the Southern ABs.
(In case of an armed conflict over the Spratleys the Su-22s would suppport the 15 Su-27/30 in the VPAF's inventory.)

- Vietnam wanted to buy 24 Mirage 2000s in the 1996, but the US (arms) embargo prevented the French from selling them to Vietnam. The arms embargo was lifted several years ago. ->By then Vietnam had already bought the Su-27/30 instead to enforce its' claim over the Spratley Islands.

- Reformistic & stable Vietnam is much more acceptable for arms exports than near-bankruptcy/civil war Pakistan. (Sure there are dificits in human rights & rule of law in Vietnam, but aren't those Mirage 2000 property of the UAE? Donations anyone?)

- In 2010/12 the next round of downzising the Army (485000 -> 375000) will free up alot of resources for procurement of new/secondhand weapon systems. But VPAF cannot afford to replace its backbone - the 150 MiG-21bis - one by one. The Mirage 2000-9 + some additional Su-30 would be a good interim solution until 2020.

- The VPAF could then be a future customer for the Rafale. Final round of downsizing of the Army (down to 275000) would be around 2018/20 according to officials' statements - more money for more toys.

- It's well known that Vietnam wants to diversty its' arms suppliers. So far only Isreal & India & Ukraine & Belorussia have gotten into deals with Vietnam. Until 2020 Vietnam has to upgrade its Armed forces in a lowcost way.

- India sees Vietnam as a serious partner to counter China's rise. India could/will help Vietnam to get into French weapon systems.

- France has shown several times interests to work closer with Vietnam. DCNS has already stated several times that Vietnam & Thailand are the two most potential customers for the Andrasta SSK.

- PRC is building/expanding major AF/Navy bases on Hainan. Soon Su-27/J-11 will soon be permanently stationed on Hainan in larger numbers. Headcaches for Vietnam

- UAE (especially their state funds) has signed major contracts with the Vietnamese government/SOEs. It's said that the UAE wants to invest up to 20 billions 'til 2025 in Vietnam's infrastructure/real estate projects and Vietnam would send up to 300000 workers to the UAE. Maybe there can be some more options.

 

[ROCK45]

UAE & Vietnam

I don't know enough about Vietnam to be honest but are there real ties between the countries you mentioned? I never heard of Vietnam workers in those numbers working in or for the UAE can you post a link to that if you can, thanks.

Wouldn't China be a little unhappy with Vietnam buying semi advance Mirage fighters in their back yard?

I always thought China pressured France into not selling more Mirage 2000-5to Taiwan wouldn't Vietnam fall into the same type of situation?

You mentioned

60 Sukhoi Su-22M4

I thought Poland was the only user who upgraded the to M4 standards, please correct me if I'm wrong. About Su-22s that would suppport the 15 Su-27/30 over the Spratleys
there pretty short range platforms not to sure they have the range. Do they really have 60?

 

[Crunchy]

I don't know enough about Vietnam to be honest but are there real ties between the countries you mentioned? I never heard of Vietnam workers in those numbers working in or for the UAE can you post a link to that if you can, thanks.

Wouldn't China be a little unhappy with Vietnam buying semi advance Mirage fighters in their back yard?

I always thought China pressured France into not selling more Mirage 2000-5to Taiwan wouldn't Vietnam fall into the same type of situation?

You mentioned I thought Poland was the only user who upgraded the to M4 standards, please correct me if I'm wrong. About Su-22s that would suppport the 15 Su-27/30 over the Spratleys
there pretty short range platforms not to sure they have the range. Do they really have 60?

It's not like that 300000 workers will come to the UAE at the same time. Vietnam's population will grow in the next two decade, so it's part of the national plan to send thousands abroad every year to relieve the domestic labour market.

http://english.vietnamnet.vn/social/2008/01/764782/

Vietnam is not a renegade province of China. As an independent nation the Viets are free to deal with everyone. (Sure Arms deal are always political. But he... Mirage 2000s aren't ICBMs.)

Well, actually Poland & Belorussia sold their Su-22 to Vietnam a few years ago.
Yes, the Su-22 do have the range to operate over the Spratleys. See link below:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VfmVKoLGzg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VfmVKoLGzg[/ame]

Only Vietnam's human rights violations & the price & logistics considerations are hurdles towards Western arms sales to Vietnam. Nothing else.

 

[ROCK45]

Uae

Hi Crunchy
I didn't mean apply Vietnam is a renegade province of China I understand it not but it would be a political situation for Vietnam to purchase Mirage 2000-5/9 from the UAE, your still on China's border. Doesn't China also claim the entire Spratleys Islands as well and their oil? I'm not saying it's right don't get me wrong but its out there and on the table.

I agree Vietnam is independent nation and should have every right to purchase fighters from any country they chose to. I find this interesting and thank you for posting that link it helps understand things a little better.

As far the Su-22 goes I guess depends on how far the Su-22 need to go. I have read good things about the Su-22 that its a pilots aircraft. One of my favorite little cold war strikers. Peru is another country that comes to mind that got a lot of years service out there Su-20/22 over the years.

If Vietnam bought the UAE's Mirage 2000-5/9 teamed with their Flankers it would give a Vietnam's Air Force a powerful combo. I can't see the Mirages going cheap and Vietnam might be able to buy almost 2 Flankers for one Mirage depending the deal and goodies that come with the purchase deal.

You mention Vietnam's human rights violations I know little about current Vietnam is this something that the government is improving on?

Thanks