Typhoon replacement.

Spetsznaz

New Member
There are a few things that you have to take into consideration.

There is A LOT of Flak about the Eurofighter, especially from Russia, who claims the Eurofighter to be a complete failure.

Europe getting a 5th generation fighter, will not be happening very soon, the BIG 3 (Russia, US, China) get first picks, Country's like Britain and even France may however have close access to the new fighters.

However and there is this possibility.

If the Eurofighter ever is tested in a real war and proves to be ineffective, than Europe will have to purchase western fighters or even go east:drunk1
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Going east, as you so put it, is not a real option for most of Europe. With the possible exception of Greece, and maybe (huge maybe) France (which would almost certainly require a joint-development effort similar to the MKI) their only option would be the F-35.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
Going east, as you so put it, is not a real option for most of Europe. With the possible exception of Greece, and maybe (huge maybe) France (which would almost certainly require a joint-development effort similar to the MKI) their only option would be the F-35.
You are right but France does not even operate Euro fighters and neither does greece:rwb
 

Scorpion82

New Member
There are a few things that you have to take into consideration.

There is A LOT of Flak about the Eurofighter, especially from Russia, who claims the Eurofighter to be a complete failure.

Europe getting a 5th generation fighter, will not be happening very soon, the BIG 3 (Russia, US, China) get first picks, Country's like Britain and even France may however have close access to the new fighters.

However and there is this possibility.

If the Eurofighter ever is tested in a real war and proves to be ineffective, than Europe will have to purchase western fighters or even go east:drunk1
Why should Europe care about how the Russians rate the Eurofighter? The feedback from evaluations and exercises is good so far, production is running and the aircraft is becoming more and more mature. Some of the Eurofighter partners will buy F-35 as well, as two of them are partners in the JSF programme. Others opt for UCAVs. There is no reason to turn to the US let alone the Russians right now. And british and italians might field the F-35 before Russia fields any PAK FA.
 

kev 99

Member
There is one small problem with un manned platforms, what happens when the 'enemy' jams your electronic data transfer between the aircraft (UAV) and the remote control base ( which may be based 100's of kilometers away, or even in another country).

You would have a highly lethal well armed 'blind/deaf' robot flying around uncontrolled, it would be a bit of an embarrassment if it attacked a civilian passanger plane?

Not a good way to make friends, while an UAV F-35 is a very practicle possible future weapons system, I think manned aircraft are going to be the norm for several decades to come.

I think Duncan Sands ? set the bench mark on predicting the future of manned aircraft.
Duncan Sandys predicted an end to manned fighters in favour of missile technology in the 1957 Defence White Paper, he got it badly wrong and made a complete horlicks of the British aircraft Industry as a result.

If he did set any benchmark then its probably more accurate to say that people should be particularly careful about predicting the end of manned aviation.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
There is one small problem with un manned platforms, what happens when the 'enemy' jams your electronic data transfer between the aircraft (UAV) and the remote control base ( which may be based 100's of kilometers away, or even in another country).

You would have a highly lethal well armed 'blind/deaf' robot flying around uncontrolled, it would be a bit of an embarrassment if it attacked a civilian passanger plane?.
What Bonza said. The designers thought of these things many years ago. There was one incident in which a UAV lost contact with base, & set off 'home' - but had the co-ordinates of 'home' set to its units home base in Ireland, rather than its operating base in Chad, & ran out of fuel en route. :D

I expect there have been cases in which UAVs have safely returned to base after losing contact.
 

Spetsznaz

New Member
This may seem like a weird question, but since most of NATO is from Europe, dont they have a plan for this.

And why does Greece have the option to go east?
 
Last edited:

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Greece has enjoyed a relatively close relationship with Russia in the defense sphere. Purchases of BMP-3s, and Tor-M1s all contribute to that (as do the Cypriot S-300s that they operate).
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
Greece has enjoyed a relatively close relationship with Russia in the defense sphere. Purchases of BMP-3s, and Tor-M1s all contribute to that (as do the Cypriot S-300s that they operate).
true but even with such good relations will the Russians sell something of such high military value as the their 5th gen fighter to Greece.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Sure we will. In the long run (around 2020-2025). We sold MKIs to India long before the VVS had anything comparable even planned for it. (infact we still don't have anything comparable, until we get the first Su-35BM deliveries) The current planned production run calls for 500 PAK-FA/FGFA fighters. I can imagine that selling a few dozen abroad, especially to reliable customers (in terms of keeping the tech private) like Greece would be more then likely. In the long-long run the PAK-FA will of course be sold to anyone who asks for it (much like the Flanker is today).
 

Onkel

New Member
There is A LOT of Flak about the Eurofighter, especially from Russia, who claims the Eurofighter to be a complete failure.

If the Eurofighter ever is tested in a real war and proves to be ineffective, than Europe will have to purchase western fighters or even go east:drunk1
I´d like to know more about what makes "russia" claiming that. HAVE YOU ANY SOURCES?

Apart from that I don´t think Europe will build an own "fift-gen-fighter". The eurocanards feature all what is needed in the nearby future and are close to the edge- including modern radar solutions, interoperability, modern weapon systems...The only thing that lacks is stealthiness.

And as it was said before, several european states are customers of the F 35.
 

Spetsznaz

New Member
I´d like to know more about what makes "russia" claiming that. HAVE YOU ANY SOURCES?

Apart from that I don´t think Europe will build an own "fift-gen-fighter". The eurocanards feature all what is needed in the nearby future and are close to the edge- including modern radar solutions, interoperability, modern weapon systems...The only thing that lacks is stealthiness.

And as it was said before, several european states are customers of the F 35.
Most of the following are collected statistics, of comparison to the Russian Sukhoi fighters and the Eurofighter:duel


SUKHOI
The Sukhoi Line Su-27, Su-30, Su-33, Su-34, Su-35 are supersonic jet fighter's developed by Sukhoi Aviation Corporation the jets has extremely high agility at subsonic speeds, enabling the aircraft to alter its angle of attack and its flight path very quickly while retaining maneuverability in supersonic flight, reinforced airframe for longer service life and has a reduced radar signature from the front. The modernised new nose holds an improved passive electronically scanned array radar, IRBIS anti-stealth technology 2009 improvements and the aircraft featured many other upgrades and electronic systems, including digital fly-by-wire and a rear-looking radar for firing Semi-Active Radar missiles.

Sukhoi IRBIS provides clues allowing to attack a surface stealth target with precision guided weapons while scanning the horizon searching for stealth airborne threats that can be engaged using active radar homing can detect and track up to 30 stealth airborne targets with a S Radar Cross Section of three square meters at ranges of 400 kilometers.
The IRBIS technology also works against ground targets, ships and conventional aircraft.

Sukhoi Operational history 34 Missions
-Ethiopian Eritrean conflict February 1999 to May 2000 14 Missions 2 in combat
-2005 tensions between India and Pakistan 2 Indian Sukhoi Su-30MKI repelled 4 F-16 Fighting Falcon from Pakistan in India border.
-2008 South Ossetia War 7 August 2008 to 16 August 2008 22 Missions 8 in combat

EUROFIGHTER
The Eurofighter Typhoon is a twin-engine canard-delta wing multirole aircraft.The Eurofighter technology is directed in a cheaper, lighter plane using the old and obsolete delta-wing design of Dassault Rafale and combining them lightweight construction 82% composites = 70% carbon fibre composites + 12% glass reinforced composites make a lightweight Dassault Rafale and called Eurofighter Typhoon. The Eurojet EJ200 is a military turbofan, used as the powerplant of the Eurofighter Typhoon The engine is largely based on the obsolete Rolls-Royce XG-40 the EJ200 is a non thrust vectoring engine ( not have thrust vectoring ) built by the EuroJet Turbo GmbH consortium, the EJ200 is a low performance engine but using the Eurofighter lightweight construction works good, the EJ200 is below of the AL-31F afterburning low bypass turbofan Diagonally 2D thrust vectoring control, Klimov RD-33 turbofan and the Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 turbofan.

Eurofighter Operational history 2 Missions
-British Royal Air Force Eurofighter crashed in eastern England when its front wheel failed to descend during a mission in Scotland to intercept a Tu-95 observing the Royal Navy exercise towards British airspace over the North Sea 2007. The Tu-95 later turned away from UK airspace after taking 235 pictures of the Royal Navy bases in United Kingdom.
-Software error the Eurofighter just stop working flying at an altitude of 15,000 metres and travelling at Mach 0.7. two-person crew ejected seconds before the plane crashed into a mountainous region of Toledo in central Spain at 1215 GMT Patrol Mission 2002.
Category: Science & Technology


Again this is just a comparison, but Russia eats that stuff up, so the Eurofighters rep in Russia is not soo great.

And of course its not the plane, but rather the pilot
 

Preceptor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thread re-opened following Mod discussion. However, the topic is "Typhoon replacement," therefore keep discussion On Topic by posting about what sort of mission tasks/roles Typhoon users are likely to need filled when the Typhoon design reaches its end-of-servicelife which will likely be in the late-2020's to mid-2040's timeframe, what sort of aircraft could fufill those required roles, as well as who could be provide those aircraft.
-Preceptor
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Most of the following are collected statistics, of comparison to the Russian Sukhoi fighters and the Eurofighter:duel
AND

Sukhoi IRBIS provides clues allowing to attack a surface stealth target with precision guided weapons while scanning the horizon searching for stealth airborne threats that can be engaged using active radar homing can detect and track up to 30 stealth airborne targets with a S Radar Cross Section of three square meters at ranges of 400 kilometers. The IRBIS technology also works against ground targets, ships and conventional aircraft.
Just a few things I wished to point out. In the first section, what does a list of statistics on Flankers and the Typhoon have to do with the aircraft/UAV which will replace the Typhoon?

The second thing I wished to point out was that the info on the Sukhoi IRBIS seemed to have been drawn from this site, but modified to label the targets as being 'stealth' instead of just being listed as 'air targets'. As a follow-on related to that, something with a RCS of 3 m squared is not typically considered LO. The F-22 Raptor which is considered to be a LO/VLO aircraft, has been described as having a golf ball-sized RCS, which is ~0.02 m squared.

Now, back to the follow-on to the Typhoon. It is difficult to predict what the next aircraft would be, as the situation is somewhat akin to someone after WWI trying to predict what would be used in service 30 years later... In that case, we would have just been entering the age of jet fighters. In this instance, we are at the end of a potentially great change in air warfare due to advances made in computers, sensors and comm systems allow greater use and capability in UAVs. The Typhoon might well be one of the last manned fighters to see service.

At present, unmanned sensors coupled with pattern/target recognition software are allowing greater accuracy in autonomic decision-making which previously had been something requiring a pilot or manned operator. The Brimstone ATGM is an example of this, as it can be fired into the vicinity of a target, and using its onboard MMW radar, scan vehicles on the ground and reject soft-skinned/civilian vehicles to targeted armoured tanks or APCs. It is able to do so because the onboard computer is able to determine, based upon radar returns, which vehicles are the most appropriate targets. It is distinctly possible that a future UAV could perform similarly, but on a larger scale as there is additional room/power available for more capable computers and more accurate (and varied) sensors, and there would still remain the possibility of a remote operating controlling a UAV on an as-needed basis or if the sensors queue the operator to a problem requiring an active decision by the operator.

What remains uncertain is whether or not the future air combatants could really be UAVs and be reliable, that is a question which remains unanswered. On one hand, significant strides have been made in the areas of programming and communications to allow more and better data to be returned to operators other than the pilot of an aircraft, at the same time, ways are being developed to scramble, alter or otherwise interfere with the link between a UAV and its operator. On a separate but related note with the advances in sensors, is the increased viability of offensive as well as defensive electronic warfare, it is quite possible that an unmanned aircraft would react to an electronic attack distinctly different than a pilot would.

As for who could provide a design, IMO the three most likely arrangements would be a multinational project with the US (like the JSF development programme), orders from a US company, or a European joint venture. I say this because while there might be a number of European designs, both manned and unmanned, which are of interest at present, it is not certain that the corporate knowledge could be advanced sufficiently far by the time replacement is required. Consider for instance the frontline European fighters currently in production or expected to be in production soon. The ones in production are the Dassault Rafale from France, the Eurofighter Typhoon (pan-European joint venture), or the not yet in production Saab Gripen NG (Swedish spiral development).

If one looks, one will realise that advanced combat aircraft are both time and resource consuming, as well as having little in common with commercial aircraft development. Due to the costs associated with development, it is difficult for a nation without large economic, technological and aeronautical bases to keep developing appropriate aircraft. Given the comparatively small sizes of various European countries, various nations have over the years partnered with different 'neighbours' repeatedly in different joint ventures. Aircraft like the Alpha Jet, Tornado and Jaguar as well as the current Typhoon would seem to indicate this.

Looking across the pond to the US, there too fighter aircraft consolidation has taken place, with just two providers existing. These are Boeing which makes the F-15 and F/A-18, and Lockheed Martin which makes the F-16, F-22 and will be making the F-35. When thinking of the F-35 programme, which is itself a multi-national project, it would seem that the cost of developing advanced aircraft has even gotten to be a bit too pricey for the US, even with the economies of scale which are possible with the US military.

While I do believe that much if not all future combat aircraft in the 2040+ timeframe will be unmanned, there could certainly be times when a manned aircraft would be preferable. And that being an unmanned aircraft is no real assurance that future designs will not have comparable per-unit costs to current manned fighters.

-Cheers
 

Onkel

New Member
@Speznaz: Thank you, but that was not what I expected. A simplified comparison of the combat record of russian eighties-maschines with two failed missions of the Typhoon, negating the lot of successfull typhoon missions. Then the typhoon´s technology is named outdated (without pointing out, what makes it outdated) and compared to some russian fighters that have not even proved their worth. Excuse me, but that was nothing more than a prestidigation. There may be lot of founded critics against the typhoon, but that was rubbish.


Back to topic: EADS, Thales, BAE are all planning and building modern UAVs and develop their existing fighters forth. So I guess in 30 years the know-how is still there and typhoon´s successor will be a european solution.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #37
It's a bit depressing to see so many people discounting Europe as a viable contender in the future of fighter aircraft as I believe we can produce some great aircraft if we just give companies the time and money to do a proper job. For some unknown reason I really like the BAE Mantis and hope that it can be made controllable by the Eurofighter.

BAE Mantis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Firn

Active Member
It's a bit depressing to see so many people discounting Europe as a viable contender in the future of fighter aircraft as I believe we can produce some great aircraft if we just give companies the time and money to do a proper job. For some unknown reason I really like the BAE Mantis and hope that it can be made controllable by the Eurofighter.

BAE Mantis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is truly rather ironic, especially if you see some entertaining the thought that on the contrary countries like Russia, China and India will. But then again not everybody seems to be concerned by the hard facts of the politcal, economical, technological and industrial status quo ;)

In the foreseeable future European nations will be viable contenders when it comes to aircrafts, unmanned or manned, military or civilian.


Firn
 

jaffo4011

New Member
Most of the following are collected statistics, of comparison to the Russian Sukhoi fighters and the Eurofighter:duel


SUKHOI
The Sukhoi Line Su-27, Su-30, Su-33, Su-34, Su-35 are supersonic jet fighter's developed by Sukhoi Aviation Corporation the jets has extremely high agility at subsonic speeds, enabling the aircraft to alter its angle of attack and its flight path very quickly while retaining maneuverability in supersonic flight, reinforced airframe for longer service life and has a reduced radar signature from the front. The modernised new nose holds an improved passive electronically scanned array radar, IRBIS anti-stealth technology 2009 improvements and the aircraft featured many other upgrades and electronic systems, including digital fly-by-wire and a rear-looking radar for firing Semi-Active Radar missiles.

Sukhoi IRBIS provides clues allowing to attack a surface stealth target with precision guided weapons while scanning the horizon searching for stealth airborne threats that can be engaged using active radar homing can detect and track up to 30 stealth airborne targets with a S Radar Cross Section of three square meters at ranges of 400 kilometers.
The IRBIS technology also works against ground targets, ships and conventional aircraft.

Sukhoi Operational history 34 Missions
-Ethiopian Eritrean conflict February 1999 to May 2000 14 Missions 2 in combat
-2005 tensions between India and Pakistan 2 Indian Sukhoi Su-30MKI repelled 4 F-16 Fighting Falcon from Pakistan in India border.
-2008 South Ossetia War 7 August 2008 to 16 August 2008 22 Missions 8 in combat

EUROFIGHTER
The Eurofighter Typhoon is a twin-engine canard-delta wing multirole aircraft.The Eurofighter technology is directed in a cheaper, lighter plane using the old and obsolete delta-wing design of Dassault Rafale and combining them lightweight construction 82% composites = 70% carbon fibre composites + 12% glass reinforced composites make a lightweight Dassault Rafale and called Eurofighter Typhoon. The Eurojet EJ200 is a military turbofan, used as the powerplant of the Eurofighter Typhoon The engine is largely based on the obsolete Rolls-Royce XG-40 the EJ200 is a non thrust vectoring engine ( not have thrust vectoring ) built by the EuroJet Turbo GmbH consortium, the EJ200 is a low performance engine but using the Eurofighter lightweight construction works good, the EJ200 is below of the AL-31F afterburning low bypass turbofan Diagonally 2D thrust vectoring control, Klimov RD-33 turbofan and the Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 turbofan.

Eurofighter Operational history 2 Missions
-British Royal Air Force Eurofighter crashed in eastern England when its front wheel failed to descend during a mission in Scotland to intercept a Tu-95 observing the Royal Navy exercise towards British airspace over the North Sea 2007. The Tu-95 later turned away from UK airspace after taking 235 pictures of the Royal Navy bases in United Kingdom.
-Software error the Eurofighter just stop working flying at an altitude of 15,000 metres and travelling at Mach 0.7. two-person crew ejected seconds before the plane crashed into a mountainous region of Toledo in central Spain at 1215 GMT Patrol Mission 2002.
Category: Science & Technology


Again this is just a comparison, but Russia eats that stuff up, so the Eurofighters rep in Russia is not soo great.

And of course its not the plane, but rather the pilot
this is hilarious after russia yet again has to ground its fleet(su27 this time)after crashes attributable to the aircraft....

the only reason they are attempting to diss the typhoon is because they are terrified of it taking its export sales around the world...after all,would you buy a lada or a rolls royce given the choice???:ar15
 
Last edited:
Top