Type 45 destroyer

[FluffyThoughts]

About the Type-45...

Are they getting CIWS's and ASM's?
It is laughable that they are not planning to install them.

As far is available in the media it is likely that the CIWS will be cross-decked from the retiring Type-42s. It is not Royal Navy doctrine to carry ASMs on Air-Defence Destroyers; they will be placed* upon the C1/C2 frigates.

* Cross-decked Harpoons from Type-22/23 most likely.

 

[riksavage]

As far is available in the media it is likely that the CIWS will be cross-decked from the retiring Type-42s. It is not Royal Navy doctrine to carry ASMs on Air-Defence Destroyers; they will be placed* upon the C1/C2 frigates.

* Cross-decked Harpoons from Type-22/23 most likely.

CIWS will be fitted to Daring this year, not sure about Dauntless though. Current batch of CIWS is being upgraded. Land based systems have already returned from Iraq and as far as I know non have been moved to Bastion.

 

[jaffo4011]

About the Type-45...

Are they getting CIWS's and ASM's?
It is laughable that they are not planning to install them.

ciws are absolutely vital on any and every frigate,destroyer carrier or in fact any valuable naval vessel .....to not equip every daring class with it immediately risks spoiling the ship for an hapeth of tar........can you imagine losing a ship worth hundreds of millions of pounds to a cheap but lucky asm shop,just because you saved a couple of quid on a ciws system?....what a joke.

they should not be waiting around for old ships to retire or for systems to return from iraq!

for gods sake lets just buy new ones and let some smack heads in the uk have to wait a couple of weeks for there drugs prescriptions or free 5 bedroom council house at our expense.

we have our priorities completely out of whack in this country.....

 

[AndrewMI]

CIWS will be fitted to Daring this year, not sure about Dauntless though. Current batch of CIWS is being upgraded. Land based systems have already returned from Iraq and as far as I know non have been moved to Bastion.

I thought the CIWS was being updated to the Milenium gun? Is that correct? I suppose that could be one of the long term projects (a la Harpoon, TacTom and "Aster 30+/50").

 

[StevoJH]

ciws are absolutely vital on any and every frigate,destroyer carrier or in fact any valuable naval vessel .....to not equip every daring class with it immediately risks spoiling the ship for an hapeth of tar........can you imagine losing a ship worth hundreds of millions of pounds to a cheap but lucky asm shop,just because you saved a couple of quid on a ciws system?....what a joke.

they should not be waiting around for old ships to retire or for systems to return from iraq!

for gods sake lets just buy new ones and let some smack heads in the uk have to wait a couple of weeks for there drugs prescriptions or free 5 bedroom council house at our expense.

we have our priorities completely out of whack in this country.....

CIWS will be fitted before they go on operations. At the moment Daring is still working up and Dauntless is still on Sea Trials.

 

[StevoJH]

I thought the CIWS was being updated to the Milenium gun? Is that correct? I suppose that could be one of the long term projects (a la Harpoon, TacTom and "Aster 30+/50").

No, Phalanx is being kept. However they have recently been updated to be able to target small boats.

 

[AndrewMI]

CIWS will be fitted before they go on operations. At the moment Daring is still working up and Dauntless is still on Sea Trials.

I would imagine that these things are only fitted as and when they are needed. For example, the preparation is in for Harpoon - can anyone imagine the RN not bolting on the launcher if going to a theatre of conflict?

Thanks for the info on Phalanx.

 

[StevoJH]

can anyone imagine the RN not bolting on the launcher if going to a theatre of conflict?

Yes, I can. No point the T45 having Harpoon as it will be tied to the carriers, which will be kept well away from enemy surface ships.

 

[Warwiz]

I admit when I first saw the T-45 I thought of it as an ugly ship with a mast that just screams please hit me, but when I saw two of them side by side in an article they looked like a formidable force, with broad shoulders really to kick some But.

 

[riksavage]

It will be interesting to see how the T45 PAAMS system is networked to the QE's flight control system / radar system. Having T45's acting as pickets within visual range of the active carrier must improve early warning if they can data transfer realtime information through to the carrier and in-turn be able to vector F35B's on to target. The fact that PAAMS can supposedly track 80 plus targets at any one time must bring huge benefits to the fleet commander trying to coordinate and prioritise his air-assets thus maximising sortie rates.

In effect the T45 suppliments MASC in bringing to the table enhanced early warning depending how far the escort destroyers are from the carrier. In a worst case scenario having 4 x T45 sitting on all four points of the compass interlocking their respective PAAMS coverage should push the surveillance window out to a considerable distance. Unfortuantely with only six on order having four available will be pushing it (based on the assumption 5 x operational / training and 1 in refit)

 

[Systems Adict]

I admit when I first saw the T-45 I thought of it as an ugly ship with a mast that just screams please hit me, but when I saw two of them side by side in an article they looked like a formidable force, with broad shoulders really to kick some But.

T45 UGLY ???

Have a look at the French & Italian ships that are based on the CNGF design,same as T45, then tell me which is prettiest....

SA

 

[kev 99]

That's not really much of a competition

To be honest I wasn't that enamouredwith the T45 from the first pictures I saw, I soon changed my mind though, they look particularly great in the new pictures of Dairing and Dauntless on trials.

 

[Warwiz]

It does fire missiles actually, it suffered a failure in what i believe was it's final test. This will delay matters but its not the end of the world.

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I wonder if the British Admirals are saying to themselves, damn it sure would be nice to have an Aegis Destroyer by the Falklands; they can attack aircraft; submarines and land targets. OMG what have we done!!!!.............................I’m just reading their minds that all. But seriously if you would have gone the Aegis way you would probably have 6-8 Aegis on hand and all the nations of SA would not dare to think to retake the Falkland’s. I know it’s a matter of pride for the English.

 

[Warwiz]

T45 UGLY ???

Have a look at the French & Italian ships that are based on the CNGF design,same as T45, then tell me which is prettiest....

SA

======================

I use to think they were Ugly, but seeing them at sea, I changed my mind. I think the USA; Spain and South Korea have the pretties’ ship. South Korea has an Aegis on Steroids, the pretties of them all.

 

[Grim901]

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I wonder if the British Admirals are saying to themselves, damn it sure would be nice to have an Aegis Destroyer by the Falklands; they can attack aircraft; submarines and land targets. OMG what have we done!!!!.............................I’m just reading their minds that all. But seriously if you would have gone the Aegis way you would probably have 6-8 Aegis on hand and all the nations of SA would not dare to think to retake the Falkland’s. I know it’s a matter of pride for the English.

What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying the T45's are somehow less capable than Aegis equipped ships? Oh and the fact the Burkes have Aegis don't make them better, they are however designed and equipped to perform the roles of both destroyers (AAW) and frigates (ASW).

 

[Warwiz]

What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying the T45's are somehow less capable than Aegis equipped ships? Oh and the fact the Burkes have Aegis don't make them better, they are however designed and equipped to perform the roles of both destroyers (AAW) and frigates (ASW).

======================

What I’m saying is if they would of gone Aegis they would have anywhere from 6 to 8 commission ships with Aegis. Right now the two T-45 are not operational, and from what I understand are not armed. In other words care the T-45 right now armed and ready for battle? There is still testing to be done correct?

Type 45 Destroyers face further worries « Daly History Blog

Not my word, these are from the article: “These new reports cast a dark shadow over MOD policy. That ships were planned without standard close-in weapons systems, that the main missile system is not yet operational, and that the ship’s main computer system has not even been ordered yet, beggars belief and could suggest that it will be a matter of years before they are able to perform their intended role in the Fleet.”

I'm sure in time the T-45 will be an awesome ship, but you need them NOW!!!!

 

[Grim901]

======================

What I’m saying is if they would of gone Aegis they would have anywhere from 6 to 8 commission ships with Aegis. Right now the two T-45 are not operational, and from what I understand are not armed. In other words care the T-45 right now armed and ready for battle? There is still testing to be done correct?

Type 45 Destroyers face further worries « Daly History Blog

Not my word, these are from the article: “These new reports cast a dark shadow over MOD policy. That ships were planned without standard close-in weapons systems, that the main missile system is not yet operational, and that the ship’s main computer system has not even been ordered yet, beggars belief and could suggest that it will be a matter of years before they are able to perform their intended role in the Fleet.”

I'm sure in time the T-45 will be an awesome ship, but you need them NOW!!!!

1) Why would opting for the AEGIS combat system have sped up the procurement?
2) The Sea Viper system wasn't planned to be fully tested until 2011, that's why the current T42's have been retired yet.
3) Even if they'd opted for AEGIS, they could still have used the SYLVER launcher with Aster missiles, again, it wouldn't make a difference.
4) That "article" is written by an amateur, just like us, he openly admits he doesn't know massive amounts on the subject. The bit you quoted is enough to tell you that. For example:

The missile system has always been planned to come into use later than the first ships. They are still in sea trials and fitting out. And they were always designed with CIWS in mind, the power supply and space have been left for Phalanx and will be added as they are retired from the T42's.

 

[Systems Adict]

There is still testing to be done correct?

Not my word, these are from the article: “These new reports cast a dark shadow over MOD policy. That ships were planned without standard close-in weapons systems, that the main missile system is not yet operational, and that the ship’s main computer system has not even been ordered yet, beggars belief and could suggest that it will be a matter of years before they are able to perform their intended role in the Fleet.”

I'm sure in time the T-45 will be an awesome ship, but you need them NOW!!!!

As stated, yes the article was written by an amatuer.

#1. The ships were DESIGNED with the ability to fit CIWS. It's a FTR equipment, meaning 'Fit to recieve', i.e. give them 48hrs & it can be fitted & ready to go.

#2. The CMS (Command System), is the main computer system for weapons & the PMS (Propulsion Management System), is the main computer system for the platform (steering / engine control / etc). Without EITHER of these systems, it would be very difficult to do ANYTHING with T-45. Both systems were fitted as the ship was being built, as there'd be no point to the ships without them.

Type 45 Daring Class Anti-Air Warfare Destroyers - Naval Technology

While there is some testing to be done, the biggest issue is the RN learning to use their new toys.

After all, YOU don't just jump into a car for the 1st time & know exactly what to do with it, without any training ??

SA

 

[Hambo]

============================

I wonder if the British Admirals are saying to themselves, damn it sure would be nice to have an Aegis Destroyer by the Falklands; they can attack aircraft; submarines and land targets. OMG what have we done!!!!.............................I’m just reading their minds that all. But seriously if you would have gone the Aegis way you would probably have 6-8 Aegis on hand and all the nations of SA would not dare to think to retake the Falkland’s. I know it’s a matter of pride for the English.

A) I think you are probably overstating the actual current "threat" to the Falklands, at the moment its just posturing. If something does occur in the nest 10-20 years we should have QE and POW, 6 Type 45, upgraded T23 and Type 26 coming on line, Astutes, F35s and Typhoon.

B) Had the UK purchased Aegis, I doubt there would be a UK industry for AESA radars, it may well have impacted on a whole host of other projects, Artisan. Maybe one of the boards experts could tell us how much technology from Samson gets pulled through to CAESAR on the Typhoon or other systems??

C) Although there is limited export potential for SAMSON, at least that means only the RN really knows how it works and what its capabilities are, the Argentinians operated Type 42 , Sea Dart and 965 Radar, they new its capabilities and its weaknesses, it may well have allowed them to succesfully attack our own T42's, Ok a lot would be common sense but it cant have hurt.
Aegis/SPY these days is widely exported, as a system. We will never know, but is it perfect? Does it do certain things in certain ways that make it vulnerable in certain scenarios? Are some of its secrets known because it is widely used. Again maybe a board expert could assist? I think you need to look at US Systems as a whole, they have multiple assets, the world best AEW capability, SIGNIT, ESM as well as unrivalled strike assets, Aegis therefore fits into a system that no other navy can match. Take AEGIS/SPY/STANDARD alone thoughon a handfull of ships, without the assorted goodies that only the US possesses, then would it be the best option for the RN?

D) Im not sure AEGIS would have worked out any cheaper. I would have been happy with either system but I can see why there are strong industrial reasons to go home grown.

 

[Palnatoke]

A)(...)
D) Im not sure AEGIS would have worked out any cheaper. I would have been happy with either system but I can see why there are strong industrial reasons to go home grown.

Are you sure that you don't mean Strong POLITICAL reasons to go home grown?

I mean,

if you can produce a homegrown system that's the equal of it's competitors in terms of f.ex. cababilities and costs, then it makes good sense to buy it of economical reasons.

If you can't do that:

you might still go for it of political reasons such as being able to produce your own defense systems, Or f.ex. that you need the votes of some workers whos jobs are in the line.

Or
You might go for it of industrial reasons, that would be the case if you f.ex. think that you can stimulate the growth of an future competiative (or economically worthwhile) industry by giving it some birth-surport in the shape of (disquised) goverment subsidies,