Turkish Air Force - Türk Hava Kuvvetleri

[John Fedup]

|"It was announced that the offered weapons package includes MBDA METEOR Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles (BVRAAM) and Turkish munitions integration on the Eurofighter is also on the table.

As part of the deal, the manufacturer consortium, Eurofighter GmbH (led by the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain) officially welcomed Türkiye as a new partner."|

source: Türkiye signs USD 10,7 billion Typhoon deal
Even with some Meteor missiles in the package, $10,7 billion for just 20 fighters is a ridiculous amount of money.

On the other hand, Eurofighter has officially welcomed Turkey as a new partner... does this mean Turkey is now part of the Germany+Italy+Spain+UK partnership?

Yep, 10.7 billion for 20 Typhoons is beyond estimated NGAD pricing (~350 million albeit likely higher). Could be support/spares in addition to missiles and partnership arrangements.

 

[Ananda]

Well at this moment it is not clear if the GBP 8 bio or USD 10.7 bio is only for 20 Eurofighter or 20 new + 24 secondhand Eurofighter. Cause the total deal for Turkiye EuroFighter is actually the second one. What's not clear whether GBP 8 bio is for what amount.

This is not first time media make wrong assumption or interpretation.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

From what I understood here in Europe asking some sources working in the consortium:

- Deal for 20 new Eurofighter Typhoons Tr.4 and package (support, weapons, training etc etc) 5.4 Billion
- Option for long-term support and others (an optional long-term services package) 2.6 Billion

So a total of 8 billion with 5,4 currently "confirmed".

Moreover:

- Assembly at Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug gmbH site Warton
- Turkey will be a partner just like all the other customers, not a member of the consortium
- Used jets NOT included in the deal, but "preliminary authorization to negotiate with other partners"

 

[Ananda]

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Starmer talk in BAE the deal for 20+20 option Eurofighter (8:50) with overall value of GBP 8Bio. This is bit different then what being talk by Turkiye media of 20 new + 24 secondhand.

Guess have to wait for more clarification on what GBP 8 bio really for. As Starmer talk deal of generation with Turkey and that's 20+20 without talk on secondhand.

This Turkiye media claim they will got sourcecode control.

Eurofighter yazılımında Türkiye'ye tam hakimiyet! Kaynak kod ve yerli mühimmat ayrıntısı

Ekonomi - Türkiye'nin 10 milyar dolarlık Eurofighter anlaşmasında hava savunmasında çığır açacak maddelerin yer aldığı belirtiliyor. Uçağın yazılım kodları Türkiye'nin elinde olacak. Eurofighter'la yerli füzeler ateşlenebilecek.

ekonomi.haber7.com

Just shown still many differentiate on the detail from UK, Euro and Turkiye sources on the deal.

 

[John Fedup]

From what I understood here in Europe asking some sources working in the consortium:

- Deal for 20 new Eurofighter Typhoons Tr.4 and package (support, weapons, training etc etc) 5.4 Billion
- Option for long-term support and others (an optional long-term services package) 2.6 Billion

So a total of 8 billion with 5,4 currently "confirmed".

Moreover:

- Assembly at Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug gmbH site Warton
- Turkey will be a partner just like all the other customers, not a member of the consortium
- Used jets NOT included in the deal, but "preliminary authorization to negotiate with other partners"

That $5.4 billion still works out to $270 million per jet, a lot IMHO. Whether this a reasonable price depends on what is included in the initial support package and the actual number of weapons. Once block 4 and the ECU arrive, I would imagine the F-35A will be closer to $150 million rather than the current $100 million.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Starmer talk in BAE the deal for 20+20 option Eurofighter (8:50) with overall value of GBP 8Bio. This is bit different then what being talk by Turkiye media of 20 new + 24 secondhand.

Guess have to wait for more clarification on what GBP 8 bio really for. As Starmer talk deal of generation with Turkey and that's 20+20 without talk on secondhand.

This Turkiye media claim they will got sourcecode control.

Eurofighter yazılımında Türkiye'ye tam hakimiyet! Kaynak kod ve yerli mühimmat ayrıntısı

Ekonomi - Türkiye'nin 10 milyar dolarlık Eurofighter anlaşmasında hava savunmasında çığır açacak maddelerin yer aldığı belirtiliyor. Uçağın yazılım kodları Türkiye'nin elinde olacak. Eurofighter'la yerli füzeler ateşlenebilecek.

ekonomi.haber7.com

Just shown still many differentiate on the detail from UK, Euro and Turkiye sources on the deal.

yes it is quite confusing right now.

The sourcecode thing is BS, I am almost sure it is forbidden by the Consortium rules themselves.
Not even the Saudis have any access to sensible informations, and they ordered 72 planes with an option for 48 more (didnt inked that at the end) so those turkish claims are quite laughable.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

That $5.4 billion still works out to $270 million per jet, a lot IMHO. Whether this a reasonable price depends on what is included in the initial support package and the actual number of weapons. Once block 4 and the ECU arrive, I would imagine the F-35A will be closer to $150 million rather than the current $100 million.

The Eurofighter is more expensive than F-35 even for the manufacturers.

Look at the last "home" orders.
All of them are around 200-250 million per jet.
Also, MBDA is very expensive too (the Meteor is ridiculously expensive, europeans use AIM-120 too because they are much cheaper and the Meteor is used a "silver bullet").

 

[John Fedup]

The Eurofighter is more expensive than F-35 even for the manufacturers.

Look at the last "home" orders.
All of them are around 200-250 million per jet.
Also, MBDA is very expensive too (the Meteor is ridiculously expensive, europeans use AIM-120 too because they are much cheaper and the Meteor is used a "silver bullet").

A "home cost" of $200-250 million seems excessive compared to an F-15EX at $120 million (fly away including sensor options). I assume there must be "extras" included in the latest home orders? If not, export orders for a future FCAS jet with similar premium pricing could be difficult. The same might apply to GCAP.

 

[swerve]

|"It was announced that the offered weapons package includes MBDA METEOR Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles (BVRAAM) and Turkish munitions integration on the Eurofighter is also on the table.

source: Türkiye signs USD 10,7 billion Typhoon deal
Even with some Meteor missiles in the package, $10,7 billion for just 20 fighters is a ridiculous amount of money.

Depends on what it includes. Years of support? Including options, & price if all options taken up? Including 24 used aircraft, perhaps including upgrade to the same standard as the new ones?

I remember, years ago, someone saying that Australia was grossly overpaying for some F-18E/F, & citing a USN contract with a unit price well under half as much. But when one looked deeper, it turned out that USN contract was bare bones aircraft to be added to an existing fleet, & perhaps not including engines, & in the Australian case, complete aircraft, spares, associated equipment, weapons, training, & years of support & even operating cost. The price for each bare aircraft was probably about the same.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

A "home cost" of $200-250 million seems excessive compared to an F-15EX at $120 million (fly away including sensor options). I assume there must be "extras" included in the latest home orders? If not, export orders for a future FCAS jet with similar premium pricing could be difficult. The same might apply to GCAP.

European orders price include weapons (most of the time) and always maintenance and support.

 

[hauritz]

yes it is quite confusing right now.

The sourcecode thing is BS, I am almost sure it is forbidden by the Consortium rules themselves.
Not even the Saudis have any access to sensible informations, and they ordered 72 planes with an option for 48 more (didnt inked that at the end) so those turkish claims are quite laughable.

Pretty sure with AI and Supercomputers they could hack just about any 10 year old source code, possibly in minutes.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Pretty sure with AI and Supercomputers they could hack just about any 10 year old source code, possibly in minutes.

Pretty sure you dont know what we are talking about.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Pretty sure you dont know what we are talking about.

The best way is still typing very fast on a keyboard randomly. You just need to watch a lot of cartoons and Hollywood films to be able to do that.

 

[hauritz]

Pretty sure you dont know what we are talking about.

Worked with software developers for most of my career. The only reason countries like Australia don't attempt to hack the F-35 source code is because we are contractually obligated not to do it. There is no magic protection that makes source code uncrackable. If there were then Lockheed Martin wouldn't constantly be releasing software updates to patch newly discovered vulnerabilities.

 

[John Fedup]

Worked with software developers for most of my career. The only reason countries like Australia don't attempt to hack the F-35 source code is because we are contractually obligated not to do it. There is no magic protection that makes source code uncrackable. If there were then Lockheed Martin wouldn't constantly be releasing software updates to patch newly discovered vulnerabilities.

LM controls their software source coding. As for constant software update releases, many are due to bugs, not vulnerabilities, Many releases are partial updates due to their inability to deliver complete new versions, prime example is block 4 albeit this is also due to the delay with TR3 and the additional power/cooling requirement that the ECU will provide for the complete block 4 software.