Turkey to buy German tanks

[P.A.F]

http://www.dawn.com/2005/11/09/int13.htm

Turkey to buy German tanks

BERLIN, Nov 8: Germany confirmed on Tuesday that it had agreed to sell nearly 300 battle tanks to Turkey. The defence ministry announced that 298 Leopard 2 tanks which currently belong to the German army will be sold to Turkey in a deal signed by both sides on Tuesday.

The Greens, the junior partners in the outgoing coalition government of Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, have in the past opposed selling tanks to Turkey because of the possibility that they would be used against Kurds in the southeast of the country.

More than 37,000 people have been killed in clashes since 1984 when ethnic rebels launched an armed campaign for Kurdish self-rule in that region.—AFP

 

[turin]

That the tanks are at risk being used against the Kurds was a rather ridiculous political argument by the Greens. MBT are not that useful in such a mountainous environment and the conflict is not that intensive in order to call in MBTs anyway. In clashes against the Kurds the turkish forces rely more on APC and comparable systems.
However the turkish army certainly needs those tanks to modernize their huge and pretty aged fleet of MBT, such as thousands of M-47s.
The tanks being transferred are Leopard 2A4, drawn from reserves of the german army. Dont know if they will upgrade them to A5 or even A6 though.

 

[polaris]

Yes Turin. These tanks cant used in these areas. Success of the Turkish army against these terorists is only thanks to experianced special forces and helos.No tanks was used at past.

These claims are just to mention the political view of these people.They say in reality: We dont accept them as terorists, they re just innocent people and trying to found their own country which we all promised them in the early of 1900's.

An impossible claim...

By the way Turkey has no M47's. İthink you wanted to say M 48's.

BRGDS...

 

[diopos]

A very good move from the turkish army , and in a way expected.
Greece also signed a contract for the purchase of ~180 Leos 2 from the reserves of the german army.

Still there are at least 300 Leos 2 for sale in the next years from the bundeswehr reserves.

So in the next few years i would expect that Turkey will go on for more 200-300 of them while Greece could buy 100-150 more.

Both countries need to modernize/upgrade their MBTs fleet and it seems like the procedue has allready started...

 

[WarpDrive]

That the tanks are at risk being used against the Kurds was a rather ridiculous political argument by the Greens. MBT are not that useful in such a mountainous environment and the conflict is not that intensive in order to call in MBTs anyway. In clashes against the Kurds the turkish forces rely more on APC and comparable systems.

The chain of events that led the Greens to take such decision was not sparked off by the use of a German MBT against the PKK terrorists anyway. It was a BTR-80 APC delivered by Germany to the Turkish Army that started everything. Turkish troops, suspicious of a booby trap, tied the body of a dead terrorist to a BTR-80 and pulled the body away. PKK made a story out of it in Europe saying that the Turkish troops were dragging alive PKK members with tanks and APCs. Many Gemans believed them and then came the hidden embargo.

However the turkish army certainly needs those tanks to modernize their huge and pretty aged fleet of MBT, such as thousands of M-47s.

Agreed except for the fact that Turkish army does not have any M-47s in its inventory, but a huge and aged M-48/M-60 fleet.

The tanks being transferred are Leopard 2A4, drawn from reserves of the german army. Dont know if they will upgrade them to A5 or even A6 though.

Nope, they will only be upgraded by Germany to Leo2A4-Batch 8 standard prior to the delivery. However, Turkey (ASELSAN) will later on upgrade their fire control system.

 

[turin]

The chain of events that led the Greens to take such decision was not sparked off by the use of a German MBT against the PKK terrorists anyway.

Yes, thats why I was referring to it as a political argument. Of course the "historical fact" it was based on, was the use of former NVA-equipment by Turkey.

Agreed except for the fact that Turkish army does not have any M-47s in its inventory,

Ah, yes. Before anyone else comments on that: I meant the M-48 and mixed it up with the 47s.

 

[oskarm]

German's Army tanks

How many Leos (and witch version) German army is going to have? Is the army going to reduce number of heavy brigades or limit numbers of tank in battalions or companies?

 

[turin]

As far as I know the future german tank forces include a total of 350 Leopard 2 being versions A5 and A6, the number being down from about 850 units a couple of years ago (then mostly version A4).
The combat units will operate a total of 264 MBT in six bataillons, the rest of the MBT is with reserves and academy inventories.
There surely will remain a number of MBT in depots, the exact number currently unknown and depending upon further sales to interested customers such as Turkey.

 

[oskarm]

Wow that's an extremely low number of Tanks as for 80 mln country in Europe. Are there plans for designing or production of a new MBT in Germany? Or Germany is going to shift to expeditionary forces?

 

[turin]

Of course the current cuts are primarily motivated by the extremely low defense budget, numbering around 24 bn Euro in total (approx. 1,5 % GDP). Additionally in recent years the new orientation towards expeditionary operations increased drastically and there seems to be little use for our formerly massive MBT forces (around 1990 numbering approx. 4,500 Leopard 1&2). Most tankers agree with the cuts on the basis that through these means german MBT forces will remain up to date while enabling the army and the Bundeswehr to develop more useful means to deploy its forces. Also chances for an enemy threatening german territory in the near future via conventional means (ie. large armies with masses of MBT etc.) are nearly non-existent and the combat value of thousands of aging tanks being in reserves over a significant amount of time has to be in doubt anyways.

Currently there exists no such effort as to indicate development of a successor MBT to the Leopard 2. All such efforts were cancelled after break-up of the Soviet Union. As of now there seems to be an agreement over further R&D being put into a completely new form of combat systems, which in form of a family of vehicles are intended to replace todays Leopard 2 at some later date within the 2010-2020 timeframe. No solid information on these efforts has transpired as of yet, though.

 

[Soner1980]

Turkish Leo 2 A4 are to be modernized locally

Turkey has bought 298 Leo-2A4 from German surplus stocks. The A4 version is of the 8th batch and is a model from 1988. Old, and outdated for today's standards.

ASELSAN will modernize the electronics and a second company will reinforce the body armor. It will be modernized to the A5 standard. Turkish army is know of the use of DU rounds that the US army used in Iraq. about 20,000 120mm with DU is in storage and is capable of piercing through all modern armor including the Leo2A6 and the M1A2 at a distance of 1,500m - 2,000 meter 'dog fight' range.

The large 120mm was a alternative for the DU round for the EU forces wich they don't want DU ammo for political reasons. Turkey will use them like other countries.

Turkish army has used tanks in low numbers as a 'mobile pillbox' on hilltops. Turkey has about 100 M-47 tanks all scrapped from duty. M48's are all modernized to the M60A1 and M60A3 standards (thermal night vision, advanced ballistic computer, laser range finder, etc.) And the M60's are upgraded to the Sabra mk.2 The M48A5T1 will be phased out of service and only the 750 M48A5T2 with its TTS will remain in service. The Other M60 series are upgraded after the first 170 m60's sabra.

Turkey is to develop its own MBT with more than 75% of the turkish companies and maybe the 25% is foreign support. The need is 1000 MBT's

Future totalling: 1000 local built, 300 Leo-2, 950 sabra and 750 M48A5T2 total count 3000 MBT in the future inventory.

 

[beleg]

Dear Soner,
afaik the DU ammo we have are 105 mm which were transferred with the M-60s after op Desert Storm. We dont have a 120 mm barreled tank atm so why have 120 mm DU ammo..

KKK (army) has ordered a new ammo(DM63) with the Leo2a4s which will improve the penetration ability and lenghten the life time of the barrel.

I would like to know more about the modernisation of Leo2A4s you mentioned. No official detail was revealed about this as of yet. We all know there were talks about modernising leo2a4s with a newer generation of Aselsans Volkan but since the details of agreements with Germany is unclear about this i think it might be early to comment. Also currently there is no extensive armor tech in Turkey (at least officially, we dont know what was gained by sabra project too). Please clarify the details you know about this.

Thanks

 

[Soner1980]

Hi,

About the Leo2 A4 modernization, I have read this in the Turkish newspaper online somewhere. I don't know much about it but I think this is the same modernization what Turkey did with its M48's. The T2 version is known of the installation of the DNTSS wich is the same night sighting system in the M60A3 TTS. The leopard 2A4 is known to have only image intensifier wich is not a Thermal viewer and does not work in absolute darkness. The Image intensifier is much cheaper and therefore mostly used by Russian tanks.

It is also known that ASELSAN always equip Turkish made radios in their MBT's because the Turkish version is unable to track and it unable to 'intercept' the radia signal because of its encryption.

The Turkish Army has enough 105mm DU rounds and some 120mm DU rounds in his inventory. Check this link and you can read the original site. http://www.laka.org/teksten/Vu/where-how-much-01/main.html

The tabular from laka.org:
TypeAmountDestinationSource105 mm M7741,000
84,451Taiwan
TurkeyJane's
Jane's120 mm M833300
2,130
10,025
320
22,920Israel
Jordan
Pakistan
Saudi Arabia
TurkeyJane's
Jane's
Jane's
Jane's
Jane's120 mm M829A2
Contract was placed with Primex Technologies in June 199523,278US Army

I don't know why Turkey has 120mm DU rounds, maybe because it had a plan to MBT's with the 120mm SB gun. Or maybe in case to of the "Turkish National Tank Project" ? But know that the Turkish Land Forces Command receives their first delivery of the Leo-2A4, it is able to penetrate modern armor at ranges of 2000 meters and that is dangerous.

Some websites say that the M833 is a 105mm like this site: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/ArmourPenetration.htm here you can also see the penetrating capability. Some handy?? :grab
Maybe you are right, why 120mm rounds if there are no guns to fire them? Then the website laka is providing wrong data. Turkey has more than 100,000 DU rounds in his inventory thats clear. Enough for destroying 20,000 MBT's.

But you can see that the Turkish M48's are also deadly as the T-72's in the Iranian, Syrian and Armenian inventories with the 105mm DU ammo. But the M48 is also fragile against the 125mm gun at all ranges . Then a dogfight is most desireable (within 2000 km) when every tank is able to penetrate every tanks armor.

I think that this info will fit you.

 

[Waylander]

The Leopard II A4 has a thermal imager for its gunner and an image intensifier for the driver.

 

[Soner1980]

Hi,

Thanx for your reply. It can be true that the German army have built (or let built) thermal imagers for all the Leo's in their inventory.

But if I look to the picture of the Leo-2A4, there must be at least the armor be upgraded because modern munitions still could penetrate the heavy armor of the 1988 model Leo 2 A4. Thats the reason that Krauss-Mafei-Wegmann has developed the A5 and later the A6 with its sloped armor. The flat armor of the Leo 2A4 is bulky but not enough for new AP or even HEAT projectiles. Also the side armor must be 'reinforced' with modular, passive or ERA armor to withstand such impacts. Today there are tripple-stage warhead HEAT rounds, even the RPG-7 has the 2 stage warhead with its able to penetrate 400mm RHA (Steel) armor with means the sides can be penetrated with this new type of rocket. The front armor is known of comparable with about 625mm tickness RHA for APFSDS and 800 for Shaped charge warheads. The Leo-2 series have composite armor with is the heavies in the world.

After all, the Leo-2 series is one of the best selling tanks in the world. It's like candy in the arms trading.

 

[Waylander]

Yeah it's right that it would be good if the turkish army could upgrade the Leo II A4s. The question is of they are able to pay for it.
It is interesting to see that their old enemy greece gets brand new Leopaed IIHE which is, together with the spanish Leopard IIE, the most capable version of the Leo II.
I don't think that they like to see the greece army going ahead in tank technology.

PS: You can believe me with the thermal imager on the Leopard II A4. I served on it. :smooth

 

[Soner1980]

ok, you are a tanker. I have sollicitated for the Dutch army but I don't passed the tests. I'm also tankhorny you know?

We will see what the modernization will include withing several weeks. But the Greek army has bought the A6 version with small changes on it, I know about it. The 298 Leopard 2A4 is the replacement for the aging 3000 M48A5 series. The 298 will be used for a time and Turkey has started to produce an indigenously designed tank. FNSS (producer of the YPR-765 and the Akinci) and ASELSAN (Military Electronics Manufacturing Facilities) and other firms have signed a contract to develop a MBT. Maybe KMW from Germany will assist or GIAT from Franse you never know about it what Turkey will make changes in their project. But when I see Turkish tanks, ok they are good maintained but obsolete know by today's standards. I'm Turkish too, I respect my countries army but it's all old crap that M48's. Truly it's a shame for a modern NATO army. Many say that they are modernized. But from where to where you can modernize them? It's is better than the original M48A5 but not equal to the oldest of the oldest Leopard-2A1.

Only the computerized fire control systems, thermal imagers from the M60A3 TTS, and the DU munitions on it are good on it. The mobility, armor and silhouette are still the 1950's. A M48A5T2 (with Thermal viewer) is the best Tank Destroyer or Self Propelled 105mm gun system (but with too much weight) in the world but the worst modern MBT in the world. Even the Leopard-1A3T1 is better than the M48A5T2 because the Leo-1 is lower, faster, more modern looking and more potential for upgrading it.

This is only my opinion. I have also a question: Is the 105mm gun dangerous for a Leopard-2A4/A5/A6? With or without the DU penetrator?

Greatings...

 

[Waylander]

I totally agree with your opinion on the modernized M48.
But I really like the Sabra upgrade for the turkish M60s.

The 105mm is obsolete even with DU ammunition.
If you don't catch them from the side or rear you will be butchered if it goes against modernized T-72s and even than the ERA could save them. If it goes against modern tanks (T-80/84/90/etc. or western tanks like the Leopard II A4-6, M1AX, Leclerc, whatever) you better leave your 105mm armed tank and hide in the woods.

 

[Soner1980]

The M48 series have one option for a good use: upgrade to a AA vehicle like the Gepard. You can put heavy mount on the M48 hull. The turret must be replaced with an AA turret with two autocannons like the 35mm or something. And also the use Stinger or equivelant AA missiles. Then it would be a good vehicle. Also, the Turkish army converted less than 100 pieces of M48 to a recovery vehicle. Also good.

I will see what Turkey does with it's M60's. The Sabra upgrade should not a very good decicion if I read Turkish news papers. It's like the JS-III. Many parts broke and the 1000hp engine is unsufficient, armor weldings broke down. All that things. The Turkish Sabra upgrade is a good platform on the other hand, but it must be cleaned by its bugs. All problems should be worked out and than Turkey has 170 Sabra's with 3rd generation performance. The Sabra project is also a technology transfer. So the remaining M60's and M48 are also upgradeable.

 

[Waylander]

Till now I red and heard only good stuff about the israeli Sabra upgrade. Sure it remains a M60, which will never be a match to a new generation tank unimportant how often you upgrade it, but it increases its capabilities.
But you are right, if the basic hull isn't in good sharpe than it's useless. If you put some new tech onto an old tank without overhauling the basic chassis you saved money in a dumb way.
The idea of making some AA vehicles out of the old M48 is a good one but maybe it is cheaper just to buy some upgraded and overhauled Gepards from germany. I think we still have some in stocks.

I really enjoy your posts because they are not in the way "my *** is bigger than yours" which happens quite often here if it comes to a tank topic.