To flechette or not to flechette?

[Jissy]

Yeah I see what you are saying Waylander, it is much more difficult than one first expects it to be...it would mean going down to the "freedom" fighter" "guerilla" type level, fighting hand to hand, house to house, I guess.

Mind you, they did that a lot in the second world war, in fact, at the battle of Villers-Bretonneux, in France, after the German and British tank divisions stalemated each other, the Aussies attacked by foot, the next day, and freed the town, when outnumbered ten to one, but with HUGE casualties of course. So, these days, that is a political problem for the army in question I guess, as the public loves to watch their boys win, but, we know the alternative, they hate it.

However, the people of Villers-Bretonneux have never forgotten the incredible courage of the Aussies, and honour the fallen there every year there. In two years, Australia lost 11,000 men in France alone, and Australia is a small nation, so it had a big impact at home, not that anyone overseas could give a toss! (except the people of Villers Bretonneux, and many other places, of course)

As for the journos getting combat survival training, that sounds like a very good idea! I think that (Palestinian?) cameraman that pointed his camera at a tank that was already firing at things in the area really asked for it, I guess. Still, you would think the tank commander could have worked it out, someone said here they have excellent vision/optics, but, it is easy from a desk to judge, I have to admit.

thanks for your informative and level headed comments!

 

[Jissy]

Flechettes = just another weapon on the battlefield. Not particularly more cruel than so many other, but more effective against infantry targets. It was developed to combat atgm crews...

No one is going to ban them, just as machine guns won't get banned.

The UN only has the power its members vest in it, and no one is going to restrict the use of flechettes, because they are just another weapon on the battlefield.

Simple as that. No constructs. No false premise.

"War is heck!" as that old Hollywood movie said...who was that, John Wayne or someone in a combat movie, or was it the movie title? Anyway, I guess I am thinking that we, as a peace loving group of non-combatants, who still see the nee for forces and self defense, etc, shoudl start to lobby governments and the corporations to develop weapons that do the job, but do not blow babies and toddlers apart as well.

and thanks for your open honesty on the matter.

 

[Grand Danois]

"War is heck!" as that old Hollywood movie said...who was that, John Wayne or someone in a combat movie, or was it the movie title? Anyway, I guess I am thinking that we, as a peace loving group of non-combatants, who still see the nee for forces and self defense, etc, shoudl start to lobby governments and the corporations to develop weapons that do the job, but do not blow babies and toddlers apart as well.

and thanks for your open honesty on the matter.

I just don't think you can win this battle. Fight the ones you can win and that are most worth winning. Relativism is a dead end. Own percieved moral upper hand goes nowhere in the face of reality (or a holistic prioritization); it has to be recognized, which it won't. You may feel you're right - but that really doesn't matter.

That's the weakness of political networking (at the grass roots level).

And thanks for the strawman.

 

[eckherl]

Flechettes = just another weapon on the battlefield. Not particularly more cruel than so many other, but more effective against infantry targets. It was developed to combat atgm crews...

No one is going to ban them, just as machine guns won't get banned.

The UN only has the power its members vest in it, and no one is going to restrict the use of flechettes, because they are just another weapon on the battlefield.

Simple as that. No constructs. No false premise.

Hi GD:

Beehives have been around for quite some time now with the U.S being the first to actually use the Flechette dart type, the round was pretty much thought of after the Korean war due to human wave assault tactics used by Chinese forces, the concept was placed on the shelve until the Vietnam conflict. The round that we used was called the M494 in which the U.S was still using up until the mid eighties when we phased them out of service, I was one of the few that was able to help assist in the firing of the ones used by 1st Tank when they phased them out, Israel is the only country that still uses the M494 but theirs is a improved version that is designed to explode overhead (airburst) versus the direct frontal approach from the U.S version. Israel and Germany are two of the few countries that have designed a APERS version in 120mm, Israel fields theirs but I do not know if Germany has ever decided to stock them, maybe @Waylander or Kato could weigh in. And I would have to agree with you that IDF fields theirs specifically for taking out ATGM teams. Here is a few photos.

 

[Grand Danois]

Hi eck,

Yes, it seems it would have been more correct to say it is fielded to combat atgm teams, rather than it was developed to that purpose.

On another note: cannon has always fired "shotgun" rounds stuffing the barrel with all sorts of nasty stuff. Cannister and flechette rounds are just modern and more effective ways of using artillery in the direct fire role.

 

[metro]

Hi eck,

Yes, it seems it would have been more correct to say it is fielded to combat atgm teams, rather than it was developed to that purpose.

On another note: cannon has always fired "shotgun" rounds stuffing the barrel with all sorts of nasty stuff. Cannister and flechette rounds are just modern and more effective ways of using artillery in the direct fire role.

@GD
-All, very true.

-A Cannon® has/can shoot "all sorts of nasty stuff," and they are popular cameras in hot zones (their brand has a niche for booming market), however, Sony, JVC, etc, are all very capable of being used to do the same thing(s)

@eckherl or any others [GF REress,etc] Just some random questions that seem kinda strange to me.

-If you see the Camera man's car/suv in the clip(s) it's basically lower than the 2 berms it's parked between. The tank doesn't look like it's very close (i'm just guessing around 2+km? your est. would be better than mine) would it be pretty difficult for the tank optics to see the car/#passengers (let's say everyone remains inside)? Without anything in the air, do you think it's possible for the tank crew to see the "Press" marking on the vehicle hood? I don't know how the people seated in the car/suv saw the tank over the berms, while driving, at that distance?

Aside: I also don't know why journalists would want footage of a tank from that distance? I'm "assuming" a pretty large amount of file footage exists at all big media outlets, I can't imagine they're paying big $$ for some more??

-Obviously the cameraman gets out of the car and it looks like he's on part of the berm behind/around the foliage. I'm guessing it's no problem for the tank crew to see him/others, and assuming the tank crew doesn't know what's on his shoulder, when the airbust flechette is fired it appears to explode in front/over him. Looking at the vehicle it's obviously got holes from the windshield and roof to the back and side doors blown open. Windshield forward, looks like its untouched... So, what part of the airbust then sends the back and inside of the car up in flames (one pic no fire damage, another pic/frame has the car torched--except windshield still in place, everything under the hood, rubber wheels are fine)? BTW, there aren't any "fire hydrants" in that area... the car would have to burn itself out!?

-Flechette airbust: if it explodes in front of you, does it act like a normal blast wave, knock you backwards/opposite direction? I was wondering about this because of the kids/bike pic. In relationship to the suv, the bike/kid seemingly should have fallen the other direction?

I'll leave it there for now, but there's just a bunch of stuff that I think is strange/interesting and I thought some others might be able to comment on.

-Cheers

 

[Waylander]

Maybe they fired another round after the first one took out the filming cameraman.

@Eckherl
Only the new HE is stored in Germany (don't ask me in which quantity though...). But this one should be enough to disable enemy ATGM teams with it's time fuzed explosion mode.

 

[eckherl]

@GD
-All, very true.

-A Cannon® has/can shoot "all sorts of nasty stuff," and they are popular cameras in hot zones (their brand has a niche for booming market), however, Sony, JVC, etc, are all very capable of being used to do the same thing(s)

@eckherl or any others [GF REress,etc] Just some random questions that seem kinda strange to me.

-If you see the Camera man's car/suv in the clip(s) it's basically lower than the 2 berms it's parked between. The tank doesn't look like it's very close (i'm just guessing around 2+km? your est. would be better than mine) would it be pretty difficult for the tank optics to see the car/#passengers (let's say everyone remains inside)? Without anything in the air, do you think it's possible for the tank crew to see the "Press" marking on the vehicle hood? I don't know how the people seated in the car/suv saw the tank over the berms, while driving, at that distance?

Aside: I also don't know why journalists would want footage of a tank from that distance? I'm "assuming" a pretty large amount of file footage exists at all big media outlets, I can't imagine they're paying big $$ for some more??

-Obviously the cameraman gets out of the car and it looks like he's on part of the berm behind/around the foliage. I'm guessing it's no problem for the tank crew to see him/others, and assuming the tank crew doesn't know what's on his shoulder, when the airbust flechette is fired it appears to explode in front/over him. Looking at the vehicle it's obviously got holes from the windshield and roof to the back and side doors blown open. Windshield forward, looks like its untouched... So, what part of the airbust then sends the back and inside of the car up in flames (one pic no fire damage, another pic/frame has the car torched--except windshield still in place, everything under the hood, rubber wheels are fine)? BTW, there aren't any "fire hydrants" in that area... the car would have to burn itself out!?

-Flechette airbust: if it explodes in front of you, does it act like a normal blast wave, knock you backwards/opposite direction? I was wondering about this because of the kids/bike pic. In relationship to the suv, the bike/kid seemingly should have fallen the other direction?

I'll leave it there for now, but there's just a bunch of stuff that I think is strange/interesting and I thought some others might be able to comment on.

-Cheers

Yes this is a lower defilade position/possible blind spot for the tank crew, by how the engagement took place the tank crew more than likely already had the beehive round already battle carried, set/dialed in at this specific range. Judging by the muzzle blast and the opening of the projectile I would say that right around the 1600 meter range would be the distance to the tank. If you are near the projectiles specific dialed in range then yes the fuse along with the amount of Comp B inside of the projectile is enough to knock you to the ground or kill you out right. With this tank in a over watch position like this you can bet that the TC already had his perimeter fully scanned and documented with all the blind area`s in his sector, this is something that is documented (range sketch) so that it can be passed to all tanks that would be brought up to pull relief duty in this very same spot. I used to be very sneeky when preparing my overwatch positions, I would take two tent stakes and drive them in the ground on the left side of the tank right where the first and last end connectors touched the ground, on the back side of the tent stake I would place two red Kem lights, this would ensure that all relieve tanks were always in the same exact overwatch position.

 

[eckherl]

Maybe they fired another round after the first one took out the filming cameraman.

@Eckherl
Only the new HE is stored in Germany (don't ask me in which quantity though...). But this one should be enough to disable enemy ATGM teams with it's time fuzed explosion mode.

Many thanks for the information, I heard that a APERS round was designed but know one seemed to know if Germany had produced them and placed them in storage.

 

[Waylander]

If that ever happened it is top secret and has never been made public not even inside the armed forces.

BTW, what would you say? Is it a Merkava Mrk.IV? It looks like one judging from the turret form but I am not fully sure at this distance.

 

[eckherl]

If that ever happened it is top secret and has never been made public not even inside the armed forces.

BTW, what would you say? Is it a Merkava Mrk.IV? It looks like one judging from the turret form but I am not fully sure at this distance.

I would concur also with that Merk model.