To flechette or not to flechette?

[Jissy]

Flechette shells, fired from tanks for example, release lots of metal 'darts' which cover a wide area, causing widespread indescriminate injury.

In the recent case of use by the Israeli Army, (as reported by the Agence France-Presse on Apr 21, 2008), an Israeli tank fired on a TV news camerman, who was filming in the open at the time, with only a handful of Palestinian kids standing nearby watching him.

The camerman then unwittingly filmed his own death, as the tank fired a flechette shell directly upon him. The subsequent argument is; did the tank crew deliberately target the Palestinian camerman? Why is the Israelie Army using flechette in confined areas where there are many civilians, particularly children? (Gasa being one of the most densely populated regions in the world)

Would the use of flachette shells be by preordained design, to wound and killl as many as possible, or is it some sort of mixup in the supply chain, like, being given the wrong type of shell to use in such a situation? The Israelie Army publicly claims it tries hard to limit innocent deaths and injury, so does it suffer from organizational problems?

Would the tank crews have alternatives to firing a flachette shell? Should the Israelie Army warn civilians that it is going to fire upon them, and how would a tank crew do this normally?

A second TV crew arrived, just after the attack on the first camerman, and they stated they also had a clearly marked new vehicle, and they had passed the same tank a couple of times that day, yet they too were then fired upon.

Is this evidence that the Israelie Army is targeting anyone collecting evidence of what it is doing to the Palestinians, or is it just an isolated example of bad chain of command, allowing independant and incorrect tactical decisions to be made by individual tank crews, resulting in unnecsessary fatalities in both the world press ranks, and innocent bystander Palestinian children?

To quote the Agence-France Press article:
"In October 2002, Physicians for Human Rights went to Israel's High Court seeking to outlaw the use of flechette shells against Palestinians but the court upheld the continued use of the weapon."

What is your take on all this?

 

[Transient]

Human Rights groups first want bomblets and landmines outlawed, next they want flechettes outlawed, after that they'll want bullets outlawed, and after that, stones outlawed as well.

 

[winnyfield]

Was it a flechette or was it a canister round? Canister rounds can be used to blow holes in walls. Other scenarios: the tankers could also have been firing blanks to scare people off. Coaxial weapon? Ricochets?

(There's always a lo of sh*t whenever the Israel-Pal/Arab conflict arises - it's easy to dismiss any accusation)

 

[Chino]

IIRC one episode of Mythbuster they tried out loading shotgun shells with rock salt. It is supposed to produce non-lethal injuries.

Maybe we can recommend to the IDF to load their canister shells similarly.

 

[Jissy]

Human Rights groups first want bomblets and landmines outlawed, next they want flechettes outlawed, after that they'll want bullets outlawed, and after that, stones outlawed as well.

hmmm...sounds like you couldn't give a toss about innocent bystanders...interesting...have you had a psyche test? If not, please get one quickly...

cya

 

[Jissy]

Was it a flechette or was it a canister round? Canister rounds can be used to blow holes in walls. Other scenarios: the tankers could also have been firing blanks to scare people off. Coaxial weapon? Ricochets?

(There's always a lo of sh*t whenever the Israel-Pal/Arab conflict arises - it's easy to dismiss any accusation)

Hi winnyfield,

no it was definitely fleshette, the doctors showed the X Rays of the 3cm winged darts in his chest etc, also the little boys were killed by darts. The film shows it happening actually, the air burst before impact is captured on Shana's camera, as he filmed his own death.

cya

 

[Jissy]

IIRC one episode of Mythbuster they tried out loading shotgun shells with rock salt. It is supposed to produce non-lethal injuries.

Maybe we can recommend to the IDF to load their canister shells similarly.

Hi Chino,

hehe! Yes indeed, wouldn't it be great if the world could convince the Israeli Defense Force to use rock salt in their flechette weapons...or anyone else in the world for that matter...

Hey, furthering your idea Chino, what about pie fights? Or best man left standing bare knuckle fights? The idea is, we pitch our leaders against each other, instead of them having everyone else killed!!

but somehow, I really doubt they would want to do that....

cya

 

[Transient]

hmmm...sounds like you couldn't give a toss about innocent bystanders...interesting...have you had a psyche test? If not, please get one quickly...

cya

The solution is not to ban them, but to use them judiciously. Every lethal military weapon can cause collateral damage and injure innocent civilians. Are you going to ban them all? Perhaps an IQ test for you would be appropriate?

cya and take care.

 

[Feanor]

Transient it's pretty obvious the Israeli Army used them unnecessarily in this case, and it seems (from what we've been told so far) that this is a pretty disgusting war atrocity. So while using them judiciously is certainly a proper decision, it's very hard to prove that it was or wasn't judicious in front of an international tribunal, which is why they're pushing them to be outlawed. Remember in Darfur the Sudanese military is using flechettes to massacre civilians under the pretext of fighting rebels.

 

[Transient]

Transient it's pretty obvious the Israeli Army used them unnecessarily in this case, and it seems (from what we've been told so far) that this is a pretty disgusting war atrocity. So while using them judiciously is certainly a proper decision, it's very hard to prove that it was or wasn't judicious in front of an international tribunal, which is why they're pushing them to be outlawed. Remember in Darfur the Sudanese military is using flechettes to massacre civilians under the pretext of fighting rebels.

If they had used it without good justification, then let them be subjected to a board of inquiry and upon confirmation of any wrongdoing, let the trigger pullers be punished. A gun can be used unnecessarily and thus cause civilian casualties too. Should guns be outlawed from battlefields as well? When will it end? Should wars be outlawed as well, since wars cause civilian casualties? What we are coming up against is reality here. You can try outlawing weapons - but unless there is a substitute available that can take its place without severe loss of effectiveness, you WILL see it on the battlefield, whether you try to outlaw it or not.

 

[Chino]

Hi Chino,

hehe! Yes indeed, wouldn't it be great if the world could convince the Israeli Defense Force to use rock salt in their flechette weapons...or anyone else in the world for that matter...

Hey, furthering your idea Chino, what about pie fights? Or best man left standing bare knuckle fights? The idea is, we pitch our leaders against each other, instead of them having everyone else killed!!

but somehow, I really doubt they would want to do that....

cya

you have doubts...?

On youtube there used to be this video of 2 IDF soldiers holding down a Palestinian man with one of the captive's arm strecthed out. A third IDF soldier broke that man's arm by smashing it repeatedly with a rock.



So by the standards of that conflict's atrocities, using flechettes seem... less barbaric.

 

[Grand Danois]

Please let's not have a discussion about who are the bads guys in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. It'll end up with people shouting at each other.

Discussing if flechettes are an acceptable tool of war would be more on the mark.

/GD

 

[merocaine]

People seem to be continually amazed that bad things happen in war.

Any death is a tragedy, esp a journalist, who is seeking to document a war and inform people. But the only purpose of the original post is to seek the Condemnation of the IDF by posing leading questions.

This is a pointless thread.

Nobody really knows the circumstances fully. Perhaps if the Tank believed it was about to come under attack from a RPG team a flechette Rounds is a correct response. Perhaps flechette rounds dont penatrate concrete to the same extent as high explosives or heavy caliber machine guns and thats why they use em in built up areas, who knows.

Remember its a war zone, I for one am amazed the Israelies are so good at keeping civilian casualties down.

 

[Waylander]

Merocaine hit the spot.

If one points a camera onto a tank in a battlezone one shouldn't be surprised that the crew might think it is a RPG.
And I would expect that it is well within ROEs to attack a supposed enemy RPG team which seems to be a direct threat to ones own vehicle with a flechette round form the maingun.
But this is just one possibility. We just don't know the circumstances.

And flechette rounds are defenitely a must have for the IDF. They are operating frequently in very dense urban areas with lots of enemy infantry crawling around.

Not that I am not sceptical of a lot of actions taken by the IDF but as merocaine said it looks like the thread starter has an agenda...

 

[Feanor]

If they had used it without good justification, then let them be subjected to a board of inquiry and upon confirmation of any wrongdoing, let the trigger pullers be punished. A gun can be used unnecessarily and thus cause civilian casualties too. Should guns be outlawed from battlefields as well? When will it end? Should wars be outlawed as well, since wars cause civilian casualties? What we are coming up against is reality here. You can try outlawing weapons - but unless there is a substitute available that can take its place without severe loss of effectiveness, you WILL see it on the battlefield, whether you try to outlaw it or not.

I'm not trying to argue one way or the other, I'm simply showing that your, rather emotional response, looked like a justification of indiscriminate usage. The case here in question is rather disconcerting in terms of the incident. Outlawing weapons does have the effect of limiting their usage, if not stopping it outright. You're far less likely to do something if you know as a result the rest of the world will have serious problems with you.

 

[Investigator]

Human Rights groups first want bomblets and landmines outlawed, next they want flechettes outlawed, after that they'll want bullets outlawed, and after that, stones outlawed as well.

Comment deleted.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

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[Feanor]

Weasel consider that the land in question was Palestinian not too long ago. The basis story is that the Europeans wanted to give Jews their own land to prevent anti-Semitism after WWII from re-emerging and as a result took land from the Arabs. :roll:

 

[RubiconNZ]

C'mon guys we have already had a warning this is about benefits of flechettes, or lack their of, lets stick to it.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

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