The sale to Morocco of 14 French Rafale combat aircraft from Dassault Aviation

Rich

Member
The sale to Morocco of 14 French Rafale combat aircraft from Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research has been finalised on the French side but is still awaiting the approval of Morocco, a French weekly newspaper reported on Tuesday.
The sale of the Brooklyn bridge has been finalized by the city of New York but is still waiting the approval of Rich.:rolleyes:

If the airplane does eventually sell then bully for France. If they sell any less then they themselves buy then the Rafale is still going to be a economic disaster. Course, they aint gonna buy all that much.

Still, it amazing how they were able to design and build such a revolutionary aircraft with about 1/10'th of the R&D that America, and her allies, put into the next generation stealth aircraft. And how they were able to out razzle dazzle the technology of both USAF and NASA regarding targeting and IR R&D. The poor F-35 is going to be slaughtered en-masse.

Today Morocco ; Tomorrow the world! Viva Le France!!!
 
If this long rumored deal is finalized, the 14 Rafale will replace some of the Mirage F-1 in the RMAF. I wouldn't be surprise if they also purchase some new/used F-16s. The RMAF fighter fleet is old and outdated especially when the algerians and libyans are modernizing their airforces.
 
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Rich

Member
Same thing happened with Libya. The French announced the sale before the Libyans had even made it. Then, the Libyans said they didnt make it, and "didnt make it".

French warplane sales have traditionally taken 10 to 15% of the fighter aircraft market world wide, a respectable market share. It would be a complete surprise to see this airplane not sell in its traditional markets.

But that's what happens when you make an "omni-wonder" with a poor radar and then send people out in the world to say the other systems in the aircraft are so good it doesn't need an AESA, or a higher degree of LO. "Meanwhile behind the scenes Dassault is scrambling for AESA and LO?.
 

Falstaff

New Member
Well, congratulations to Dassault for the first export order, if it actually workes out. The 14 will probably not stay alone too long in Morocco.

BTW does anyone know if the Saudi Arabia proposal for 36 Rafales is off the table?

DID says the following about the market situation of the Rafale:

The problem is positioning. The Rafale is finding itself squeezed on three fronts.

[1] Many nations do not have the funding or the need for an "omni-role fighter" aircraft in the $60+ million range, and are explicitly purchasing light fighters like Lockheed's F-16 (Greece, also Turkey, and many others), Saab/BAE's JAS-39 Gripen (Sweden, Czech Republic, Hungary, South Africa), and Dassault's own Mirage 2000 instead (Taiwan, UAE, possibly India) in the $20-30 million range - or buying used. For instance, Thailand got Singapore's older F-16A aircraft when Singapore upgraded to a newer model of F-16. Richard Aboulafia, of the Teal Group, has some harder stats on this.

Singapore, with its long sea lanes and wide potential area of operation, had a different set of requirements, and an immediate need to replace their ancient A-4SU Skyhawks. To put that need in perspective, Sen. John McCain was flying an A-4 Skyhawk when he was shot down over North Vietnam.

[2] Among advanced militaries, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter appears poised to become the next F-16. Decisions like MBDA's announcement that they would adapt their Meteor long-range air-air missile for the F-35 reflect a growing acknowledgement of that reality.

The Joint Strike Fighter is an affordable 5th Generation aircraft, with a wide base of international participants (USA, Australia, Britain, Canada, Denmark, Israel, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Turkey) and improved capabilities. As the program moves closer to completion, analysts expect its influence on procurement decisions will grow stronger and induce many countries to wait instead.

[3] Meanwhile, both the Russian SU-27/30 family (Russia, China, India, Malaysia, Vietnam, et. al.), and the EADS Eurofighter (Austria, Britain, Italy, Germany, Spain) offer stiff competition and loyal customer bases in the realm of 4th generation aircraft. The F-15 Strike Eagle is also emerging as a strong export competitor in this realm (USA, Israel, Korea, Singapore), which is particularly bad news for Dassault given its compatibility with widely-used American munitions, targeting pods, communications systems, etc.

As DID has noted before, Singapore's quality military, leading-edge doctrine, and smart procurement decisions have made them an influential bellwether customer whose military decisions are seen as a meaningful endorsement in Asia and beyond. Had they selected Dassault's Rafale over Boeing, it could well have opened doors for that aircraft elsewhere. Instead, the Rafale's export mission just got tougher. Dassault's bravado concerning global fighter trends and opportunities notwithstanding.

Indeed, continued failure to secure export orders could have real blowback effects into the Rafale program for France.

The Rafale program was always dependent on some level of foreign orders to help finance its ongoing modernization and upgrade plans. If that option continues to fail, France's budget constraints could leave the Rafale falling steadily behind even its 4th Generation peers, in a vicious spiral that further crimps export opportunities.

Back when France was still part of the Eurofighter consortium, their rigid insistence on their own specifications and on deciding all work-sharing unilaterally forced a parting of the ways. While French requirements really were quite specific, the decision has thus far proven to be a very expensive one.
 

BKNO

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
Rich French announced the sale before the Libyans had even made it. Then, the Libyans said they didnt make it, and "didnt make it".
LIAR!!! Not a single official source announced ANY sales to anyone, you're full of wind...

Realistic.
Astonishing.
Technology.
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8920/12ff211yv9.jpg

Falstaff Extract: The Rafale program was always dependent on some level of foreign orders to help finance its ongoing modernization and upgrade plans.
Well actually it is NOT so. The roadmap is completely independent financially, and the singapore failure did help a little...

France's budget constraints could leave the Rafale falling steadily behind even its 4th Generation peers, in a vicious spiral that further crimps export opportunities.
Dont know who was having wet dreams over one this but apparently he must be related to someone i know from recent visit in a famous forum....

While French requirements really were quite specific, the decision has thus far proven to be a very expensive one.
Same here from where we are the Rafale is well ahead of Eurofighter in A2A like A2G developements.

And developements costs like unit costs are lower.
 

Falstaff

New Member
AFAIK it was widely reported that the Libyans were upset by France announcing the deal too early. In this case I guess I have to stick with Rich.

Edit:
Sorry, didn't catch the term "official". That's true, but a French newspaper announced it and claimed to be citing top Libyan officials. The rest of the story is known.

Let's stick with AFP:
French aerospace group Dassault Aviation denied a press report that it was negotiating the sale of Rafale fighter jets to Libya.

"To date, there is no negotiation on this matter between the Dassault company and the Libyan authorities," a company spokesman told AFP.

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"This type of matter belongs to the bilateral domain between the French and Libyan governments," he added.

According to the Journal du Dimanche newspaper on Sunday quoting Libyan government sources, Libya plans to order between 13 and 18 French-made Rafale fighter jets as part of its plans to modernise its army.

"The political decision to buy French Rafale fighter planes was taken recently at the highest level of the Libyan state," the newspaper said, adding that the order was valued at about 2.5 billion euros (3.2 billion dollars).

The fourth generation Rafale fighter planes, made by Dassault Aviation, have never been sold outside France.

A source close to the dossier had earlier said there had been no new developments in the matter and the report was "speculation".
 

BKNO

Banned Member
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  • #8
No one had announced anything.

Press noises perhaps but the French authorities certainly NOT even less DAssault. These deals are done from gouv to gouv and the only one to have any authority to announce a deal are the officials.

Now you can go and try to find an official French source announcing a sale i know there isnt ANY because i try everyday and even this morning so if the deal havent been signed by the King, officialy there is NO deal.
 

Falstaff

New Member
See my edit above. If you just google Rafale+Libya one has a slight idea what the Journal du Dimanche let loose. Given Gaddhafi's temperament I don't wonder...
 

BKNO

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
Falstaff Given Gaddhafi's temperament I don't wonder...
Well, too bad for the colonel, i'm not worried about Rafale sales, and as far as i'm concerned this one is just another journalist talking before it actually happens.

I will believe it when DGA or Dassault make an official stament.

For the rest since it looks like the closet to the real thing i thought i'd post it but it goes no futher than that when it comes to my own little expectations.

I'd say wait and see...
 

Falstaff

New Member
Well, let's hope the king won't wait too long and return to the Rafale thread for technical details and EF vs. Rafale ;)
 
No one had announced anything.

Press noises perhaps but the French authorities certainly NOT even less DAssault. These deals are done from gouv to gouv and the only one to have any authority to announce a deal are the officials.

Now you can go and try to find an official French source announcing a sale i know there isnt ANY because i try everyday and even this morning so if the deal havent been signed by the King, officialy there is NO deal.

Well someone is leaking info. to the press either from the French govt. or Dassault.
 

Rich

Member
Well someone is leaking info. to the press either from the French govt. or Dassault.

To figure out who is leaking all you have to do is look and see who has the most to gain by the leak. Right now Dassault is desperate to make the rafale a viable aircraft to compete with its peers, and its desperate to give the impression that the overall contruction run is going to be big enough to guarantee consistent bloc upgrades.

A failure on the export market will make potential buyers even more nervous. And the French have only a short window to drum up business for the airplane because the F-35 is going to be coming off of production lines in a few years. And even tho all the experts in about a dozen countries are all wrong:rolleyes: , the F-35 is going to sell just as fast as we can build them. The eventual run will by 4,000 to 6,000 aircraft with up to 3,000 sold to other nations.

14 to Morocco huh? Wow what realistic, astonishing, technology:D
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
I hope the news is confirmed as the Rafale seems to me to be a very capable aircraft that deserves some export success. For Dassault's sake I hope the report is correct and the King signs the deal.

Cheers
 

Rich

Member
LIAR!!! Not a single official source announced ANY sales to anyone, you're full of wind...
I was hoping BKNO didn't slither back to his post# 128 in "The French Rafale fighter aircraft" thread. In that post, after I inquired about the lack of sales, he tried to slide in this article in French misrepresenting the supposed sale to Libya, "I guess he's another leaker". Little did he know I can speak enough French to have read the article is a year old and that I'm aware of the Libya/Rafale fiasco.

It was another slick attempt to pass 1/2 lies as truths as he's been doing all along with this aircraft. Its a pity, the entire charade around this aircraft and the hole the French aviation industry has put itself in.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/e...-export.com/detailsafrique.php?numafrique=414

Heres the link to the thread page. http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6248&page=2


Rich Oh and one more thing, for the 5'th time, why has the Rafale faired so poorly on the export market?
Apparently i might just prove you wrong...

http://www.dev-export.com/detailsafr...numafrique=414

I think i have alrweady given some proper explainations to this question, particularly in view of the fact that these were official.

As opposed to what you might think i DONT do blogs, i leave this to guys who are happy posting copy/paste stuff they can gather in the web.

I i need an info i'll start with official sources such as DoD/MoD/DGA and in the case of French programmes the best place to start is that of the Assemblee Nationale finishing with squadrons websites.

http://www.ec17provence.org/
 

Falstaff

New Member
From this week's JDW regarding a Russia-Libya arms deal. Brings some light to the Rafale for Libya discussion, I think.

Libya and Russia are believed to be close to signing an arms agreement for the sale of Russian fighter aircraft and airdefence systems to Tripoli under a USD2.2 billion deal.
The move would appear to dash French hopes of selling advanced military equipment to Libya. Official sources in Moscow and Tripoli said a Libyan delegation led by Abdul Rahman Assayed, an official in charge of Libya's military procurement programme, visited the Russian capital in early May to discuss the acquisition of 12Su-30MK2and12MiG-29SMT fighters as well as long- and shortrange air-defence systems and one or two Kilo-class (Type 636) diesel- electric submarines. (...)
If confirmed, the accord would thwart efforts by Paris to interest the Libyans in acquiring France's Rafale multirole fighter aircraft and the Tiger combat helicopter built by Eurocopter.
The French presented the aircraft at an airshow in Tripoli in early December 2006 in what was their first attempt to test the export potential of Libya since a EU arms embargo on Tripoli was lifted in October 2004.At that time, French officials said France hoped to gain up to 20 per cent of Libya's military market.
French companies won a EUR140 million (USD187 million) contract in November 2006 to refurbish 12 ageing Mirage F1 air-defence/multirole fighter aircraft that Libya bought in the late 1970s. (...)
Although France claims to be seeking export contracts in Libya, French suppliers have failed to display much zeal in drumming up business on the Libyan market in recent months. In fact, some contractors admit they have taken virtually no action. An official at Eurocopter told Jane's that Tripoli had approached the company regarding its range of helicopters, including Tiger, but that “we haven't pursued the question in a concrete manner”.
Some analysts believe the lack of enthusiasm could stem from the feeling that France stands little chance of winning custom from Libya as a result of friction between Paris and Tripoli in recent months over issues such as France's robust defence of four Bulgarian nurses currently under a death sentence following allegations of contaminating Libyan children with AIDS.
“At any rate, France clearly perceives Libya as an extremely sensitive market, if only because Tripoli emerged just recently from pariah status on the international stage,” said North Africa specialist Gaelle Arenson, editor of the Paris-based newsletter Maghreb Confidential. “That explains why Paris could appear half-hearted in wishing to do business with it.”
 

BKNO

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #19
Rich I was hoping BKNO didn't slither back to his post# 128 in "The French Rafale fighter aircraft" thread.
FIRST THING FIRST: I said "MIGHT".

The trolling habit you are suffering of is not an universal standard by any mean.

Quote:
Apparently i might just prove you wrong...

http://www.dev-export.com/detailsafr...numafrique=414

I think i have alrweady given some proper explainations to this question, particularly in view of the fact that these were official.

As opposed to what you might think i DONT do blogs, i leave this to guys who are happy posting copy/paste stuff they can gather in the web.

I i need an info i'll start with official sources such as DoD/MoD/DGA and in the case of French programmes the best place to start is that of the Assemblee Nationale finishing with squadrons websites.

http://www.ec17provence.org/

SECOND: I already was talking about Official sources but NOT in the case of the Lybian sale mate because it was NOT official.

As usual you got your wires all crossed and quote out of contest...

WHICH WAS: "For a starter what i post is the result of DGA studies and 1/7 squadron pilots reports, if you can comprehend what it means in term of operational values."

THISS is the ONLY official SOURCES i refered to.

Rich Right now Dassault is desperate to make the rafale a viable aircraft to compete with its peers,
I strongly recommand that you learn just a tad about Dassault and Rafale before trying yourself at anaylisis WAY above you knowledge.

“That explains why Paris could appear half-hearted in wishing to do business with it.”
Interesting comment NO???

The only one desperate anywhere between St Cloud and your keyboard is yourself because Dassault can afford turning down request for proposals and have financials years way better than 10 years ago...

Realistic.
Astonishing.
Technology.
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8920/12ff211yv9.jpg
 
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contedicavour

New Member
Morocco is the likeliest country to buy Rafale at the moment, and the Russians don't have the influence they have in neighboring north African countries.
The other countries operating Mirages in the area are unlikely to buy Rafales : Spain (had Mirage F1s but has taken Typhoons), Greece (has Mirage 2000s but is buying the latest F16s and should order Typhoons shortly), Egypt (has -2000s but is 100% American now), Libya (too much Russian influence for the moment), Switzerland (some old Mirage IIIs replaced by Hornets), Belgium (Mirage Vs replaced by F16s).
That leaves the EAU as another potential market (even if it has the latest Mirage 2000-9s) and may be Brazil eventually (though more second hand -2000s are more likely for lack of funds).

cheers
 
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