The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

[SolarisKenzo]

Will slaughtering Ukrainians in Donbass help not getting NATO closer?

Looks like they got the exact opposite.

 

[Redshift]

@rsemmes, can I ask this genuinely: do your arguments ever substantially go beyond whataboutism?

This thread isn’t about the U.S., EU hypocrisy, or whether other countries have committed crimes in the past. It’s about Russia’s war against Ukraine and its outcomes.

If the standard is that no action can be judged as a mistake or irrational because “someone else once did something similar”, then discussion here becomes pointless. Under that logic, nothing is ever a good or bad decision or outcome, and there’s nothing left to analyse.

So I’m trying to understand: are you arguing that Russia’s actions were strategically sound given the outcomes, or are you simply saying others are also doing mistakes? Because those are very different claims.

Well said

 

[Redshift]

There is no reason to believe that further nato expansion would not have happened anyways is there? After all Ukraine was never supposed to be part of NATO either. So from Russia's point of view it was a lose or lose less option. Have Ukraine as NATO for sure and potentially Finland later or have just potentially Finland later. It also needs to be taken into account that the nation's NATO has since expanded to are not really all that mush of a shock. As in there were decidedly pro western as it was. Or at least very unlikely to be pro Russian in any event. This prior to the reforms made under zelenski was not the case in Ukraine, Ukraine was untill then something of a buffer state for Russia so NATO was in terms of threat perception from Russia much more of a issue then finniland for example. There is of course alot more to this aswell eg. Military capabilities, relative diplomatic influence, even the fact Russian had made clear they would respond to such a action and the ramifications for it if it had not are factors worth of consideration I'll just say ect for the rest here

The jury is still out if it was a wise decision but there is a solid argument it was also a forced choice of bad or worse options. This was not a choice made in a vacuum after all

What does "never supposed to be" mean? No nation or human is bound for all of eternity to be one thing or another, NATO threats to Russia didn't exist, there is ZERO political will within Europe to invade Russia and NOBODY should be anyone else's BUFFER state against their will no latter how many "ramifications" are made clear.

 

[rsemmes]

NATO threats to Russia didn't exist

We have been here before:
If Russia considers that Ukraine's NATO's membership is a threat, it is a threat. The threat (to Russia) exist based on Russian's considerations, not on yours, not on NATO's.
It is naive, or something else, to think that we rule what is a threat from a second country to a third country. (And, adding -out of thread- hypocrisy to that, we react to those threats very selectively.)

 

[Aleks.ov]

It’s an interesting formulation, and I’m aware of how much modern Russian elite rhetoric is shaped by reactive opposition to the West.

What I’m less clear on is whether this really reflects how the broader population sees it. Do people genuinely believe they’re “fighting the West” as such? And do they actually see Russia as operating on the same level as the US, China, or even the EU bloc, to the point where it could meaningfully restrain this Western impunity?

Are you surprised ? And what should be the reaction of ordinary people if we see the continuous discrediting of Russian athletes, tens of thousands of sanctions introduced, Western companies renouncing their obligations within Russia, the blocking of cross-border transfers, the seizure and essentially theft of foreign assets, etc. Not to mention Western pop culture, where Russians are overwhelmingly portrayed as villains.
I hope you understand that the full brunt of the consequences of this confrontation hardly touches the political elites and mainly hits ordinary people?
The global world has irreversibly changed, new centers of power have emerged, and the traditional Western model of expansion and dominance no longer works, this is precisely why conflicts are inevitable.