The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

While there certainly are places like that, there are also many places that don't look like that. Where I grew up in Voronezh doesn't look like that. You're cherry-picking the information that supports your feelings on the subject. I could post photos of East St. Louis and talk about how bad it is in the US, but it wouldn't be representative. You also have a tendency to pick a bleak time period, winter or early spring with trees barren, and snow and dirt on the ground. But, for example, here's a more typical mid-winter photo from Voronezh;


And here's one from the park. A completely different impression. Photography is an art, meaning there is typically a message behind the photo. It's not just an objective capture of everything that's there.


For a little more context here's a couple of photosets from Varlamov, a Russian blogger and urbanist. One captures the good features the other the bad, of Nizhniy Novogorod, another major city that isn't Moscow or St. Petersburg. Note the time of year is also that late winter early spring part where the partly melting snow and barren earth contribute to the bleakness.

EDIT: Full disclosure, photos are from 2017. They're not completely up to date. But they do illustrate the variety of urban environments from half-rotted century old wooden houses to modern apartment complexes, and historic buildings which also vary from very well preserved to in rather poor state.




This is simply not true. Plenty of people change their circumstances, get an education and build a life for themselves. Some jobs don't pay well, but some do. And don't forget outside the center of Moscow and St. Petersburg the cost of living drops dramatically, so what constitutes a well paying job changes. More significantly Russia has seen an improvement in quality of life in the past 25 years that's quite substantial. Housing availability has increased dramatically, car ownership has increased quite substantially, and the human development index has also steadily risen since the late '90s. Lastly average salaries in Russia have also increased quite a bit over the same time period, and this is even when accounting for the problems caused by the sanctions after '14. In fact the current war has done less to hit Russian average salaries than the sanctions from '14-'15.



There is a culture of very heavy drinking in Russia. It hails back to the pre-Soviet era, but it grew steadily under the USSR and continues to this day. In my experience it isn't income-dependent. So it's not that people drink because their lives are bad. People whose lives are good also drink. But it's just my subjective view of it, I don't have data to back it up. There is also very lax enforcement of laws controlling age limits on purchasing alcohol. Growing up it wasn't unusual for a kid to get sent to the store to get some beer for an adult, and the store just takes their word for it. Especially if it isn't the big grocery but a smaller shop or even stall. Which of course means plenty of 14-15-16 year olds walking around with beer. When I was 15 the only thing that limited my access to vodka was finances.

I can only say what i saw when i was with my father to a business trip there. It was most depressing place and people i have ever encountered. I was glad that it was only a few days and it was one of those trips where you realize your home is not perfect but sooo much better.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I can only say what i saw when i was with my father to a business trip there. It was most depressing place and people i have ever encountered. I was glad that it was only a few days and it was one of those trips where you realize your home is not perfect but sooo much better.
There are towns and places with different circumstances. I'm not well familiar with Irkutsk so I can't really speak to it, but for example in Siberia there are two major cities, Novosibirsk and Omsk, where the situation is dramatically different. Omsk is a hell-hole, while Novosibirsk is significantly nicer. In the Far East Khabarovsk is much more pleasant than Vladivostok. And in the Bay Area, California, an extremely wealthy part of the world, Hayward is a hell-hole, and Palo Alto is very nice. I think a single trip to Irkutsk is not a good way to formulate an opinion of Russia as a country. I'm not sure what your father's business was, or what his intentions were behind taking you wherever specifically it was that he took you, but if you want to know Russia as a country you will need to make an effort to look beyond that one experience.

EDIT: Another town in the Donbas under Russian control, Debal'tsevo. This town is famous, it was the site of a major Ukrainian defeat back in '15, when it effectively led to the second Minsk Accords. At that time there were reports that the town was ~80% destroyed. Today parts of Debal'tsevo are still in ruins, but the city still has a substantial population, power, water, and public transportation. Originally the city had ~20 000 population, it's not clear how many remain. The first video is from 5 6 months ago, after that is a series of videos from a driver who apparently lives in the area. He drives around Debal'tsevo quite a bit talking mostly about the roads, traffic issues, and road signs. The motorist in the second video talks about traffic police and about speed bumps recently installed. You'll note the roads are in good shape. The driver also complains about a lack of one-way road signs for one of the streets. In the third video we see a train, but it's unclear if it's just rusting there, or if the rail line is in active use but the train crossingds and surrounding signange is new. Also the driver comments that one of the rail lines is a dead end and not in use, suggesting the others are in use. There is other civilian traffic on the streets, though he does appear to be mainly driving around suburban areas. We also do see an occasional army truck. The 5th video is bicyclists using an abandoned road to enter Debal'tsevo. They don't really make it into town until the ~15 minute mark. They stop by a roadside shop for food and drinks. We can see plenty of civilian cars in the area. They then enter what appears to be the train station area. It looks clean and undamaged, but very empty. They then head back out of town. The 6th video is AI - translated and appears to be talking about aid from Khabarovsk region to Debal'tsevo. They mentioned rebuilding a local gym and installing an elevator in the hospital which previously didn't have one. In general Russia has instituted a policy of region from "greater" Russia taking charge of assisting a given town or locale in the newly annexed areas and Khabarovsk seems to be the one responsible for aid to Debal'tsevo. Workers from that region have been reportedly repairing wells and water-supply, roads and traffic signs, and stops for public transit. There were also plans to build a new grain elevator in the town in 2025, also suggesting the rail line is active, but no word on whether these plans went forward.

I was not able to find good data on the population of the town today, or on the state of the central parts of the town. While Debal'tsevo is mostly suburban, it has a few neighborhoods of mid-rise apartments. Often private residences are easier to rebuild, and the locals are more able to secure some reconstruction funds and do it themselves over time while the larger buildings require a government-led effort. Unfortunately we don't get a look at those areas, making it hard to say what the situation is. Overall the town clearly lives, has population, and I suspect if the rail lines aren't already actively being used, they will be in the future. Debal'tsevo hasn't been near the front lines since 2022. It also sits on a major road and rail corridor from Donetsk to Lugansk, with the route passing through Gorlovka and Alchevsk on the way. There is also not much in the way of conversations with locals, making it hard to judge what the situation looks like from the ground level.

 
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Redshift

Active Member
@Redshift I understand this is an emotional topic for some, but the tone of your replies is getting unnecessarily heated. You’re pushing back against positions I didn’t state. Maybe in the future take a breath and reread calmly before replying a bit too fired up.
Yes of course your logic is impeccable, silly me
 

Redshift

Active Member
They cannot be that barbaric, they don't torture bulls, bleeding them to death, to the amusement of some spectators.
I guess that poisoning political opponents, or throwing them out of windows is the height of civilisation, we live and learn.

That's without even worrying about forced labour camps and penal colonies, often described as Gulag 2.0.
 

rsemmes

Active Member
You need to be there to see what they live like. Outside the center of Moscow and St Petersburg Russia is a absolute dystopia. If you dont belong to the elite you live in poverty and without any hope to climb out that misery. Since it is a system based on corruption, working hard changes nothing because hard work is even be seen as stupid.



Your entire life is set. You grow up and know you will have a shitty job, in a polluted mud city where evrything falls apart. You know you will never be able to offer your children anything. Day in, day out.
Canada Real/Madrid, 3000 viviendas/Sevilla, La Corta/Malaga, El Raval/Barcelona, Los Mateos y las Seiscientas/Cartagena... your city.
But you were once to Irkust, have you been in those neighbourhoods too? The Bronx, Croydon? Do you think everything in Paris is like La Defense?

Why don't you go around "Los Mateos/Seiscientas" taking pictures and interviewing people and tell us about their prospects in life?
 

Redshift

Active Member
Correct. Russian life expectancy is in the low 70s, as opposed to the low 80s for much of western Europe. So this does lower the median age. But it also means that we take the population of Russia as the absolute figure, fewer of that figure are older. And vice versa for countries like Spain we take their total population, a bigger portion of that population is older. It's the exact opposite of Beltrami's argument about Russia's population being old.



The one hit by a missile strike while in dry dock was almost unavoidable. I mean theoretically Russian air defenses could have shot down the missile, but the reality of this war is that neither side can fully stop inbounds from the other side, something gets through. The recent one was more problematic since it was done by an unmanned boat, a threat Russia is very well familiar with, and has managed to contain in places like Crimea. And the Novorossiysk base has, and had at that time, measures in place both active and passive to manage the risk of unmanned boat strikes. But it appears the barriers were open, and the security elements were a combination of insufficient, and unprepared. It makes one think of the Ukrainian strikes on the Caspian flotilla. The strikes did very little damage but revealed that Russian facilities and units well away from the current war aren't internalizing and applying the lessons of the war. Russian drone defense in places like Belgorod or Crimea might be robust, but in other places it's lacking. And it's particularly embarrassing in Novorossiysk, since that's practically a front line area for the sea and air war.
Russia's population can never be old by that definition as so few of them live long enough.

In my opinion this is not a good thing, or a balancing thing just rather sad that Russia has chosen to spend it's money on warfare rather than welfare.
 

Redshift

Active Member
Canada Real/Madrid, 3000 viviendas/Sevilla, La Corta/Malaga, El Raval/Barcelona, Los Mateos y las Seiscientas/Cartagena... your city.
But you were once to Irkust, have you been in those neighbourhoods too? The Bronx, Croydon? Do you think everything in Paris is like La Defense?

Why don't you go around "Los Mateos/Seiscientas" taking pictures and interviewing people and tell us about their prospects in life?
Croydon, London Crime and Safety Statistics | CrimeRate Croydon, London Crime and Safety Statistics
 

rsemmes

Active Member
I guess that poisoning political opponents, or throwing them out of windows is the height of civilisation, we live and learn.

That's without even worrying about forced labour camps and penal colonies, often described as Gulag 2.0.
I think we're already going off topic here...
You mean kidnapping people in Europe to fly them to some friendly dictatorship to get tortured? France in Argelia, UK in NI? Maybe sending West Point trained officers to the Escuela de las Americas, to teach how to kidnap, torture, disappeared and massacre people?
That "height of civilization"? Leave it there, we all are a bunch of criminals. (It's just that you like your criminals.)
 

Redshift

Active Member
I think we're already going off topic here...
You mean kidnapping people in Europe to fly them to some friendly dictatorship to get tortured? France in Argelia, UK in NI? Maybe sending West Point trained officers to the Escuela de las Americas, to teach how to kidnap, torture, disappeared and massacre people?
That "height of civilization"? Leave it there, we all are a bunch of criminals. (It's just that you like your criminals.)
The criminals that you say that I like are in the past, the Russian ones are very current
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Putting Croydon in the same category as the Bronx is ludicrous, and indicates your lack of understanding of crime rates in the UK Vs the USA.
Yes, this is OT, but I would suggest that even before trying to compare crime rates between different countries or areas, one also needs to pay attention to both the land area and respective demographics. I do not know Croydon and have never been there. I have been to and walked through the Bronx albeit it was years ago. Both appear to be of similar size in terms of land area with Croydon being ~87 sq. km whilst the Bronx land area is ~107 sq. km. Where there is a sizeable difference however is in terms of population, with Croydon borough estimates at ~409k compared to pop. estimates for the Bronx of ~1.47 mil. That kind of difference in population can skew all sorts of things.

Trying to compare things (people, places, etc.) that have drastically different datasets is a recipe for coming to unsupported and potentially unsupportable conclusions.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Russia in its primitivism and barbarism is so low below our cultural and economical standard, that i absolute would prefer death over russian rule over Europe. Your suggestion is like thinking Egypt under Ramses II would accept to be ruled by some australian aboriginie tribal leader. The whole idea is absurd
I understand that people can dislike countries, or hate the governments controlling these countries, but your comments are often very close to pure racism.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
No, just observation.
Do you have, or have you had extensive contact with Russians? Have you traveled in and around Russia extensively?

So far, it appears that much of the commentary offered by you at best appears to be based off observation that likely could be accurately summed up as limited or perhaps cursory. Given the content of other posts, it could also be interpreted by others that you have opinions which you then attempt to confirm via limited observation.

When one factors in the amount of apparent judgement in opinions asserted, there would be little surprise if some members of the forum are wondering whether or not some element of bigotry is involved.
 
Do you have, or have you had extensive contact with Russians? Have you traveled in and around Russia extensively?

So far, it appears that much of the commentary offered by you at best appears to be based off observation that likely could be accurately summed up as limited or perhaps cursory. Given the content of other posts, it could also be interpreted by others that you have opinions which you then attempt to confirm via limited observation.

When one factors in the amount of apparent judgement in opinions asserted, there would be little surprise if some members of the forum are wondering whether or not some element of bigotry is involved.
I am a human. "Bigotery" is the very core how our species functions. We observe, see patterns and act according.

Evry single Interactions with russians i had was between negative and strong negative.

- bad behavior of russias tourists in spain

- theft of spains gold by russia

- support of terror groups in Spain by russia

- very bad travel for me in Irkutsk

- war in Ukraine

- sabotage of european infrastructure
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I am a human. "Bigotery" is the very core how our species functions. We observe, see patterns and act according.

Evry single Interactions with russians i had was between negative and strong negative.

- bad behavior of russias tourists in spain

- theft of spains gold by russia

- support of terror groups in Spain by russia

- very bad travel for me in Irkutsk

- war in Ukraine

- sabotage of european infrastructure
I am Russian and you have had interactions with me. I take it they were all negative or strong negative?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I am a human. "Bigotery" is the very core how our species functions. We observe, see patterns and act according.
I will agree that you are likely human, rather than a bot. However, humans do not function by the definition of bigotry. I can understand that English is not your native tongue, so here is a dictionary definition of bigotry taken from Merriam-Webster.

1: obstinate or narrow-minded adherence to one's own opinions and prejudices: the state of mind of a bigot
2: acts or beliefs characteristic of a bigot
Being obstinate or narrow-minded is not an inherent, automatic human condition.

Evry single Interactions with russians i had was between negative and strong negative.

- bad behavior of russias tourists in spain

- theft of spains gold by russia

- support of terror groups in Spain by russia

- very bad travel for me in Irkutsk

- war in Ukraine

- sabotage of european infrastructure
Neat list. It does seem to support the POV that others might have of one being obstinate and/or narrow-minded.

I agree that it is indeed likely that some Russian tourists might have behaved badly and/or illegally whilst in Spain. OTOH, I rather doubt that all Russian tourists or travelers that have visited Spain have done so. Similarly, I also rather doubt that it has only been Russians visiting Spain who engage in bad behavior, or that Spanish tourists and travelers have never acted poorly when visiting other nations.

To blame Russia and Russians of today for 'stealing Spanish gold' which I assume is referring to events which took place back in 1936, some 90 years ago during the Spanish Civil War might be described as an 'interesting' interpretation, but to the best of my understanding, all of the participates involved in that event would likely be long dead by now. It is also my understanding that the gold which was shipped to the Soviet Union (not modern day Russia) was done so by members of the Republican gov't of Spain. Questions and controversies certainly remain, even today, but IMO this is certainly understandable given that the events took place with civil war in Spain as the backdrop. In fact, evidence of that conflict still linger, with there likely being some 2,000 suspected mass graves in Spain dating from either the Spanish Civil War, or in the aftermath when Franco held power.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
I am a human. "Bigotery" is the very core how our species functions. We observe, see patterns and act according.
Not sure if you understand what you are writing, because you are accepting to be a racist. Europeans are supposed to be enlightened, human rights and all that.

It is perfectly fine and reasonable when one describe current Russian actions as despicable and deporable, but I would draw the line at passing judgment on an entire culture and race.
 
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