The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

[Ananda]

I object to the general term of "mercenary" applied to the volunteer fighters for UKR as per the RU MOD.

Every sides will call the foreign fighters fighting on opposite side as 'merc'.

UNITED STATES : Role of US private military contractors expanding sharply in Ukraine - 02/11/2022 - Intelligence Online

As Russia's war in Ukraine grinds into its ninth month, the role of PMCs backing Ukrainian troops appears to be growing, interviews and a review of job ads show. - 11/2/2022

www.intelligenceonline.com

Private military firms see demand in Ukraine war

Private military contractors see surging demand in Ukraine - but could the work turn mercenary?

www.bbc.com

What's the differences for those in Wagner and those with US/West Private Military contractors. The existance of those contractors from West is one of reason existance of Wagner coming. If West can justified Private contractors, why not Russian can do it also. Both contractors are playing on 'grey' area anyways.

For me, what I don't accept is Western media and leaders call Wagner etc as Merc while their private contractors as contractors or voluenteer advisors. Come on all of them are private business working and thrive on conflicts. Not much difference on each other operation.

Off course there are those who fights for pure reasons to help Ukraine. I'm not close my eyes on that. Still increasingly private contractors are playing on both sides. That's also the fact.

 

[Rob c]

When you're already involved actively support one side in a war, even 'officially' not involved directly, you already conducting 'proxy' war. Did in Korean and Vietnam war, USSR not conducting proxy war against US ? Off course they did. Did US didn't did the same proxy war against USSR in Afghanistan ? Off course they did.

Fact is without US and Collective West active support, Ukrainian lines already collapsing. We can also said that without active supply lines from China and USSR commercial fleets flocking Haiphong constantly, North Vietnam will not be able to sustain operation in South. There's not much different then what happened in Ukraine now.

So it's already proxy war, and remember Korean, Vietnam, or Afghanistan all started more or less with Invasion. Most war happen that way.

I would disagree with you on this, This whole war is against western economic interests and they have nothing to gain from it, they are simply helping the invaded country. If Indonesia was invaded by say China would not the government there ask for help from friendly nations? This does not then make out that those nations are involve in a proxy war being A proxy war involves one country fighting the war in the interests of another country. This is not the case here as Ukraine is fighting for it's own interests and not anyone else.
I agree with you that Korean, Vietnam, or Afghanistan are proxy wars as the difference here is that a large part of the fighting was carried out for and or by outside interests.
This is not the case in this war, as Ukraine is doing its own fighting and asked for military aid as any country would in this position. It was seen as a break down in world order by other countries and that a sovereign nation had been invaded and required help to maintain its sovereignty. Ukraine is not fighting for other interests it is fighting for its own primary interests and sovereignty that is what makes this not a Proxy war.
As I stated before that this war was not in anyone's best interests outside of the combatants and has had a significant down side for most. To help someone in need does not make you a proxy to that person.

 

[Feanor]

Every sides will call the foreign fighters fighting on opposite side as 'merc'.

UNITED STATES : Role of US private military contractors expanding sharply in Ukraine - 02/11/2022 - Intelligence Online

As Russia's war in Ukraine grinds into its ninth month, the role of PMCs backing Ukrainian troops appears to be growing, interviews and a review of job ads show. - 11/2/2022

www.intelligenceonline.com

Private military firms see demand in Ukraine war

Private military contractors see surging demand in Ukraine - but could the work turn mercenary?

www.bbc.com

What's the differences for those in Wagner and those with US/West Private Military contractors. The existance of those contractors from West is one of reason existance of Wagner coming. If West can justified Private contractors, why not Russian can do it also. Both contractors are playing on 'grey' area anyways.

For me, what I don't accept is Western media and leaders call Wagner etc as Merc while their private contractors as contractors or voluenteer advisors. Come on all of them are private business working and thrive on conflicts. Not much difference on each other operation.

Off course there are those who fights for pure reasons to help Ukraine. I'm not close my eyes on that. Still increasingly private contractors are playing on both sides. That's also the fact.

The difference is that they are engaging in full scale combat operations. They are assaulting an entire city, albeit a small one and very slowly. But at this point Wagner is operating artillery, tanks, and aircraft. This is very different from western PMCs, at least in general.

I would disagree with you on this, This whole war is against western economic interests and they have nothing to gain from it, they are simply helping the invaded country. If Indonesia was invaded by say China would not the government there ask for help from friendly nations? This does not then make out that those nations are involve in a proxy war being A proxy war involves one country fighting the war in the interests of another country. This is not the case here as Ukraine is fighting for it's own interests and not anyone else.
I agree with you that Korean, Vietnam, or Afghanistan are proxy wars as the difference here is that a large part of the fighting was carried out for and or by outside interests.
This is not the case in this war, as Ukraine is doing its own fighting and asked for military aid as any country would in this position. It was seen as a break down in world order by other countries and that a sovereign nation had been invaded and required help to maintain its sovereignty. Ukraine is not fighting for other interests it is fighting for its own primary interests and sovereignty that is what makes this not a Proxy war.
As I stated before that this war was not in anyone's best interests outside of the combatants and has had a significant down side for most. To help someone in need does not make you a proxy to that person.

I submit that this war is fully in the interests of the United States. It ties Russia to a no-win war, drains resources, and one that has effectively united the Europeans against Russia. For the EU having the war is against their interests. But if the war is to happen, it is certainly within the interests of the EU to not have Russia win it.

 

[Ananda]

proxy war involves one country fighting the war in the interests of another country. This is not the case here as Ukraine is fighting for it's own interests and not anyone else.

Ohh come on, there's western geopolitical interest on this. Why do you think USSR and US fighting proxy war in Afghanistan. There's no significant interest (if we talk economics) from both of them. They fight proxy war to each other on geopolitical interest.

Western powers provide substantial supplies and money to prop up Ukraine even before 2022 invasion. This is all part of geopolitical power strugle. Again this is going to back on debate why Nato expansion to East happen. For helping Eastern European securities or Russian Containment. We can debate this for years, as already seen this on early this threads.

However don't talk as if West has no interest in here. They have geopolitical and security interest in here. Do you think the avarage euro zone publics will give this damn about this war if this not happen in their front door ?

This is even more proxy war for most Euro zone then Afghanistan, Korean, Vietnam or other war that happen outside Western door step.

But at this point Wagner is operating artillery, tanks, and aircraft. This is very different from western PMCs, at least in general.

Agree on that Wagner operating on larger scale (in Ukraine) compare to other Western PMC. However I'm talking more on the nature of business of Wagner compare Western PMC. All of them are playing in grey areas and already used as part of 'proxy' arms. Nature of PMC can provide more or less political denialbilities.This is part of reasons of their existance (off course not all of the reasons of their existance).

 

[KipPotapych]

In addition to the above two posts, the latest comments in an interview by Merkel change the whole premise, if you like, of the invasion to begin with. From Reuters: Putin: Russia may have to make Ukraine deal one day, but partners cheated in the past

In an interview published in Germany's Zeit magazine on Wednesday, former German chancellor Angela Merkel said that the Minsk agreements had been an attempt to "give Ukraine time" to build up its defences.

I don’t speak German (and don’t have subscription to the source) and only read bits and pieces of the interview in various media. It appears that no one but Russia actually expected the Minsk to materialize and was (apparently lamely) preparing for war. From the Russian perspective, they should have rolled through what they wanted back in ‘14.

P. S. If someone has the full interview and wants to post it in an appropriate thread, I’d be interested in reading and thankful.

 

[Feanor]

Agree on that Wagner operating on larger scale (in Ukraine) compare to other Western PMC. However I'm talking more on the nature of business of Wagner compare Western PMC. All of them are playing in grey areas and already used as part of 'proxy' arms. Nature of PMC can provide more or less political denialbilities.This is part of reasons of their existance (off course not all of the reasons of their existance).

What's the gray? They're engaging in full scale combat action for money.

 

[Ananda]

What's the gray? They're engaging in full scale combat action for money.

Gray in here as PMC being used by nations to conduct hostile operation on their behalf, without commiting their own troops. Nature that part of their existances.

Yes, they all are business, thus work for money. That's why I say before, all PMC on all sides are business that thrive in conficts. Well it is already happen for centuries, under different names. Guess now it is PC to call them 'private contractors'.

 

[Feanor]

Gray in here as PMC being used by nations to conduct hostile operation on their behalf, without commiting their own troops. Yes, they all are business, thus work for money.

Given the scope and scale of the war effort, whose resources is Wagner using? Where do their tanks and IFVs come from?

 

[hauritz]

I am going express what might be a very unpopular opinion. The Azov Regiment are Nazis. Well technically not Nazis but certainly they share much the same ideology. They have claimed to have depoliticised since being absorbed into the Ukraine National Guard but all the videos I have seen with them wearing their Nazi inspired paraphernalia and tattoos would seem to tell a different story. Even those who fought along side them will pretty openly tell you that they are Nazis.

Russia has its own Nazi problem of course. The Wagner Group are also straight up Nazis. Frankly I wouldn't lose any sleep worrying about Nazis killing Nazis accept of course a lot of innocent lives are lost in the process.

If Putin is seen as a failed leader it is quite possible that the extreme right will seek to replace him with one of their own. Any defeat of the Russians will also greatly embolden the extreme right in the Ukraine and they will probably expect to be rewarded for their efforts in defeating the Russians.

Do you see the concerns I have?

This may be a no win situation with the extreme right ending up seizing power in both Russia and the Ukraine.

The only way out of this may be if Russia and the Ukraine agree to peace terms perhaps ceding territory currently held by Russia. I told you that this would be an unpopular opinion. The alternative could be a group of nuclear armed Nazis in control of Russia.

 

[Dead Money]

Ukraine: Foreign fighters ‘offered £1,500 a day to fight against Russia’

Ukrainain officials have claimed 16,000 foreign soldiers have signed up to fight

www.standard.co.uk

Ukraine Welcomes Foreign Fighters Against Russian Invasion - Barnett, Lerner, Karsen, Frankel & Castro, P.A.

Mercenaries and contractors are fighting on both sides of the Russo-Ukrainian War.

www.injuredoverseas.com

Every sides will call the foreign fighters fighting on opposite side as 'merc'.

Private military firms see demand in Ukraine war

Private military contractors see surging demand in Ukraine - but could the work turn mercenary?

www.bbc.com

What's the differences for those in Wagner and those with US/West Private Military contractors. The existance of those contractors from West is one of reason existance of Wagner coming. If West can justified Private contractors, why not Russian can do it also. Both contractors are playing on 'grey' area anyways.

For me, what I don't accept is Western media and leaders call Wagner etc as Merc while their private contractors as contractors or voluenteer advisors. Come on all of them are private business working and thrive on conflicts. Not much difference on each other operation.

Off course there are those who fights for pure reasons to help Ukraine. I'm not close my eyes on that. Still increasingly private contractors are playing on both sides. That's also the fact.

The three articles you referred to above all source the same job advert -

Extraction/Protective Agents - Ukraine, Listed by Silent Professionals

"If you do not have extensive prior experience protecting private clients in a solo practitioner / small team capacity and 5+ years of military experience, you will not be competitive. Only competitive candidates will be contacted for further vetting. Non-competitive candidates will simply not be considered or contacted. "

Emphasis mine. This advert is recruiting extraction and protection staff to work in Ukraine. It is a very different proposition to what Wagner is doing.

UNITED STATES : Role of US private military contractors expanding sharply in Ukraine - 02/11/2022 - Intelligence Online

As Russia's war in Ukraine grinds into its ninth month, the role of PMCs backing Ukrainian troops appears to be growing, interviews and a review of job ads show. - 11/2/2022

www.intelligenceonline.com

I couldn't get past the paywall on this article. Can you please post the text or advise how to view it?

I'm very interested in any evidence of Ukraine hiring foreign soldiers to fight at higher than local rates of pay (eg. Mercenaries). Thanks.

 

[Ananda]

Given the scope and scale of the war effort, whose resources is Wagner using? Where do their tanks and IFVs come from?

If we look back to PMC that US use in Iraq or Afghanistan, aren't they also using assets originated from 'certain' similar sources that US military source? Or if we go back to Vietnam era, where those CIA back private operators got their assets.

Not much different in nature of their business or where they are sourcing their assets from. It is just on Ukraine, Wagner seems got more 'scales' on operating.

 

[Ananda]

very interested in any evidence of Ukraine hiring foreign soldiers to fight at higher than local rates of pay (eg. Mercenaries). Thanks.

What make you think it is Ukraine that hiring ? They don't have money, especially hard currencies.

The Next Step in U.S. Aid to Ukraine: Operational Contractors

The United States and NATO have ramped up their support to Ukraine by providing major weapon systems. However, the maintenance and training demands to make these systems effective will likely require the deployment of battlefield contractors to Ukraine.

www.csis.org

 

[Dead Money]

Westerners media claiming foreigners fight on Russian side as 'mercenaries' while foreigners fighting on Ukrainian side as 'freedom fighters'. Come on, things are not white and black in this war, and there're many 'grays' on both sides.

I'm interested in any evidence of mercenaries fighting on the Ukrainian side.

International Convention against the Recruitment, Use, Financing and Training of Mercenaries

My understanding is that the foreigners fighting in this war:
- For Russia, foreign fighters in Wagner are getting paid more than regular soldiers thus we can infer at least some (many?) of the participants are motivated in large part by money to perform combat duties. The Wagner soldiers are not part of the national army, and the chain of command is at best murky.
- For Ukraine, foreign fighters are getting paid same/comparable to regular soldiers. In the absence of higher than regular pay despite requiring experienced applicants, I believe we can infer that the foreign volunteers are there because of reasons other than just money. The Ukrainian foreign fighters are part of the national army, within the chain of command.

What make you think it is Ukraine that hiring ? They don't have money, especially hard currencies.

The Next Step in U.S. Aid to Ukraine: Operational Contractors

The United States and NATO have ramped up their support to Ukraine by providing major weapon systems. However, the maintenance and training demands to make these systems effective will likely require the deployment of battlefield contractors to Ukraine.

www.csis.org

The CSIS article linked above is talking about non-combatant training roles - which again is substantially different to a 'fighting mercenary'.

I accept your earlier claim that support activities are not black and white - but surely you can agree that Wagner's activities on the Russian side are far closer to the UN definition of 'Mercenary' than the Western PMC?

 

[Ananda]

you can agree that Wagner's activities on the Russian side are far closer to the UN definition of 'Mercenary' than the Western PMC

Question is whether those Western PMC only involve in support back front, or 'advisors' role, then I agree they are operating on different scheme then Wagner. Right now the claim on those PMC active in fronts mostly from Russian sources. Thus questionable.

However if we go back to what US PMC done in Iraq, Afghanistan, or even the roles of CIA private "advisors" in Vietnam, then they are doing same nature then Wagner. Just in smaller scales.

So unless there are real effidences collaborate by both sides more importantly independent parties on ground, that those Western PMC only stay in back fronts and not active on fronts operation, then I still say by nature of their business, those Western PMC are not different then Wagner. The difference in scales of operation not means the nature of their business is different.

 

[Ananda]

This may be a no win situation with the extreme right ending up seizing power in both Russia and the Ukraine.

I believe we already discussed in this thread or the other Russian-West thread, that alternative of Putin will not means it is going to be better for Western perspective. In other hand perhaps this is also the reasons why Putin has not actively target Zelensky elimination.

Deep down both of them perhaps realize the alternative regime can be much worse.

 

[Feanor]

If we look back to PMC that US use in Iraq or Afghanistan, aren't they also using assets originated from 'certain' similar sources that US military source? Or if we go back to Vietnam era, where those CIA back private operators got their assets.

Not much different in nature of their business or where they are sourcing their assets from. It is just on Ukraine, Wagner seems got more 'scales' on operating.

You chose resources as the criteria. I drew a different distinction. My point was that your very own criteria doesn't work.

 

[Ananda]

My point was that your very own criteria doesn't work.

Well I'm looking more on the nature of their business. Wagner and Western PMC by nature of businesses in my view are not much difference.

 

[hauritz]

I believe we already discussed in this thread or the other Russian-West thread, that alternative of Putin will not means it is going to be better for Western perspective. In other hand perhaps this is also the reasons why Putin has not actively target Zelensky elimination.

Deep down both of them perhaps realize the alternative regime can be much worse.

Frankly if I were Zelensky I would be just as concerned about Azov putting a bullet in my back. They need him because of his obvious ability to garner support from the West but I still wouldn't trust them.

 

[STURM]

The difference is that they are engaging in full scale combat operations. They are assaulting an entire city, albeit a small one and very slowly. But at this point Wagner is operating artillery, tanks, and aircraft. This is very different from western PMCs, at least in general.

In your personal opinion what definition would Executive Outcomes fall under : mercenary or a PMO? Their stand is that they're a PMO. In Sierra Leone the played a pivotal role preventing the RUF from taking Freetown [they had a couple of BMPs; Hinds and Hips] and in Angola they seized vital installations from UNITA; in both places they were contracted by governments and engaged in open combat.

 

[mist]

Keep taking the RU MOD line and you identify yourself.

People from other countries go to UKR to fight for principles, not money. Thats why they arent "mercenaries".

NATO has no boots on the ground. When RU and China were supplying weapons to the North Koreans or North Viet., were we at war with RU or China ? Nope.

The only aggression is on the part of RU. If they dont like the pain, then they can fuck off, right this minute back to RU proper.

taking the RU MOD Line? no, dont attack me personally please, am a neutral, i don't care about Russia or Ukraine, i like to follow war and discuss military developments, that said, most of you on here tow the Nato line and bash everything Russian, like Russia hasn't done anything of military value since the begining of this war. this is war, no body is holy, forget that principle and morals thing, if you are not from Ukraine and you fighting there for money or getting paid, then your a mercenary. simple