The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

[tabu]

I wonder - regarding that exclamation mark - how many people realize that a single NATO artillery battalion fully involved is calculated at 7,200 rounds per combat day for ammunition supply?
(and the Soviet standard for 152mm is about the same btw)

Since you state that the daily number of rounds per 152mm gun is 400, I am wondering if you have any information regarding the maintenance of these guns. For example, what do the rules in NATO forces and in the Russian Armed Forces say about when, where and how gun barrels should be replaced?

The barrel of a 2C3 gun has a service life of 3,500 rounds. This means that such a Ukrainian or Russian battalion has a resource of 9 days of such intensive combat.

The barrel of a 2C5 gun has a life of 1,200 rounds. That means that a 2S5 battalion has a resource of 3 days of combat.

It is clear that modern Western artillery has many times longer barrel life. But by how much?

 

[vikingatespam]

I would not be surprised if it is known that Ukrainian pilots and ground staff have been mastering the F-16s for a long time.

There is simply no other way out.
Ukrainian fighters have no shot-forget missiles, no air-to-surface guided weapons, and the Su-24Ms were few and far between ..... I.e. there are almost no strike vehicles left (Su-24M), or they only use air-to-surface guided missiles from the cockpit. Maybe they still throw cast iron, but there is no photo-video evidence of this. There are no guided weapons and/or crews capable of using them. That is, there are actually planes (still) there, but no strike vehicles. The fighters have a slim chance of achieving an air victory. With all the courage of Ukrainian pilots, the air war cannot be won on these museum pieces.

While it would be pleasant surprise to me that there was enough planning ahead to train UKR pilots to use NATO planes, I am too cynical to think this has happened. The logistical challenges to switching to NATO airplanes would not be a trivial manner. You would have to relabel controls and rewrite your computer interface for a different language. You would have to train ground crews for an entirely new set of spares and maintenance routines. You would have to introduce new spare parts into your logistical tail. You would have to import new munitions. Most of all, I suspect you cant train a handful of pilots on SEAD on a short term basis. The western nations have spent an immense amount of time and effort to get their air forces to where they are. Just like carrier aviation, you cant just build or receive the hardware and expect to operate smoothly until you practice and drill for some time.

I suspect that the air defenses on both sides are too strong for either side to gain air supremacy (unless NATO gets involved).

 

[vikingatespam]

Since you state that the daily number of rounds per 152mm gun is 400, I am wondering if you have any information regarding the maintenance of these guns. For example, what do the rules in NATO forces and in the Russian Armed Forces say about when, where and how gun barrels should be replaced?

The barrel of a 2C3 gun has a service life of 3,500 rounds. This means that such a Ukrainian or Russian battalion has a resource of 9 days of such intensive combat.

The barrel of a 2C5 gun has a life of 1,200 rounds. That means that a 2S5 battalion has a resource of 3 days of combat.

It is clear that modern Western artillery has many times longer barrel life. But by how much?

A couple of online sources indicate the barrel life of the M777 is about 2500 rounds. I have no way to corroborate that, but I would be sure that barrel life would be shortened if you use maximum firing rates for longer periods of time.

Another video by Perun on youtube:

 

[tabu]

While it would be pleasant surprise to me that there was enough planning ahead to train UKR pilots to use NATO planes, I am too cynical to think this has happened. The logistical challenges to switching to NATO airplanes would not be a trivial manner. You would have to relabel controls and rewrite your computer interface for a different language. You would have to train ground crews for an entirely new set of spares and maintenance routines. You would have to introduce new spare parts into your logistical tail. You would have to import new munitions. Most of all, I suspect you cant train a handful of pilots on SEAD on a short term basis. The western nations have spent an immense amount of time and effort to get their air forces to where they are. Just like carrier aviation, you cant just build or receive the hardware and expect to operate smoothly until you practice and drill for some time.

I suspect that the air defenses on both sides are too strong for either side to gain air supremacy (unless NATO gets involved).

Is it possible in the US to start pilot training for Ukrainian forces without Congressional approval?

The U.S. Congress is initiating the training of Ukrainian pilots on F-15 and F-16 jets

Member of the U.S. Congress has introduced the legislation introducing the training of the Ukrainian fighter jet pilots.

mil.in.ua

 

[kato]

I have no way to corroborate that, but I would be sure that barrel life would be shortened if you use maximum firing rates for longer periods of time.

Barrel life is generally measured in EFC (Equivalent Full Charge), not in rounds fired.

Any exact numeric range for that would be classified. Generally assume that the quoted absolute number is at the low end in EFC for current-technology barrels in modern artillery.

 

[tabu]

Above all, there is not only the Excalibur: there is also the much cheaper M1156 PGK capable of turning a normal bullet into a guided weapon.

Ukraine to receive new precision-guided 155-mm artillery rounds from USA

The US will provide Ukraine with 1,000 rounds of 155mm ammunition as part of a new $400 million aid package

mil.in.ua

 

[swerve]

While it would be pleasant surprise to me that there was enough planning ahead to train UKR pilots to use NATO planes, I am too cynical to think this has happened. The logistical challenges to switching to NATO airplanes would not be a trivial manner. You would have to relabel controls and rewrite your computer interface for a different language. You would have to train ground crews for an entirely new set of spares and maintenance routines. You would have to introduce new spare parts into your logistical tail. You would have to import new munitions. Most of all, I suspect you cant train a handful of pilots on SEAD on a short term basis. The western nations have spent an immense amount of time and effort to get their air forces to where they are. Just like carrier aviation, you cant just build or receive the hardware and expect to operate smoothly until you practice and drill for some time.

I suspect that the air defenses on both sides are too strong for either side to gain air supremacy (unless NATO gets involved).

Or train only speakers of a language which your aircraft systems can already work in. IIRC quite a few countries operate aircraft which have displays in a foreign language, usually English.

 

[seaspear]

What would a small number of this generation aircraft bring to this conflict Russia has advanced anti aircraft systems ,is there a capability that is so important now to bring not being achieved by present means

 

[swerve]

Ukraine has a limited number of ex-Soviet combat aircraft & can't make more. The supply of similar aircraft available to import is small. They've been given a few by ex-Warsaw Pact NATO members, but there aren't many more to give.

If the Ukrainians want to enlarge their air force, or even maintain numbers (allowing for losses) they'll need non-Soviet/Russian aircraft, & that really means western.

 

[vikingatespam]

Ukraine has a limited number of ex-Soviet combat aircraft & can't make more. The supply of similar aircraft available to import is small. They've been given a few by ex-Warsaw Pact NATO members, but there aren't many more to give.

If the Ukrainians want to enlarge their air force, or even maintain numbers (allowing for losses) they'll need non-Soviet/Russian aircraft, & that really means western.

We can all agree to that however the current administration appears unlikely to give "offensive" weapons to UKR.

UKR doesnt have to have air superiority, and is unlikely to ever get there regardless of how many F-16/18/whatever are sent there. Instead if you can neutralize the RU airforce through better anti-air assets, thats a pretty big win.

 

[Karl Franz]

What would a small number of this generation aircraft bring to this conflict Russia has advanced anti aircraft systems ,is there a capability that is so important now to bring not being achieved by present means

I agree, the cost benefit is simply not there. A full squadron of F16s plus training, weapons, spare parts, fuel, would get up to 2 billion $. Taking into account Russian air defenses, it is questionable how long the squadron would remain in operation. On top of that Western aircraft are not designed to operate from unprepared runways so it would be even more difficult to conceal them on the ground.

In my opinion for that money the West should be sending trucks as many as it possibly can. Ukraine has big problems transporting weapons/supplies from western Ukraine to the front and even moving units from one section of the front to another. As we have seen in a recent videos they are forced to use civilian cars or simply be on foot. The Ukrainians are in inferior position in pretty much all aspects except from man power, so it must utilize it as best as it can and be able to plug the gaps or to conduct both offensive and defensive maneuvers, and for that it needs trucks. I do not know exactly how much a truck costs (doesn't have to be new or in pristine condition, it just needs to work) but i suspect it could get 5 to 6 thousand trucks for that amount of money (including fuel). I remember my father-in-law telling me how vital the trucks (he was in command of a major supply hub) were in our own war with the super power. If you use correct tactics do not use large convoys and stay off major highways, you can supply troops at the front with minimal losses.

 

[Feanor]

Update.

Kherson-Nikolaev-Odessa.

Russian strikes, Nikolaev area.

Повёрнутые на войне

Утро в Николаеве начинается с шухера на позициях всу.

t.me

Ukrainian strikes, Kherson outskirts.

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vk.com

Air defenses firing over Kherson.

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vk.com

Ukrainian forces landed on Zmeiniy. A pair of abandoned Russian field kitchens, and a cistern truck can be seen.

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vk.com

Footage from the Kahovskaya hydroelectric plant, under Russian control.

Повёрнутые на войне

РИА Новости публикуют кадры с Каховской ГЭС, которую сегодня пытались обстрелять украинские войска. Плотина и другие сооружения целы. Начальник смены рассказывает о том, как она продолжает работать.

t.me

A Raptor patrol boat allegedly damaged by a Bayraktar strike near Zmeiniy. If true, it means at least one survived a strike. It's unclear if this is one of the ones we've seen or another strike that went unpublished.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

Zaporozhye-Dnepropetrovsk.

Russian artillery firing near Energodar, towards Nikopol'.

АГЕНТ ГОСДЕПА

❗ВС РФ ведут огонь со стороны Энергодара и Водяного. Обстрел Никопольский района на противоположном берегу.

t.me

Colonelcassad

❗ВС РФ ведут огонь со стороны Энергодара и Водяного. Обстрел Никопольский района на противоположном берегу.

t.me

The North.

Ukraine is mining roads and railroads to Belarus.

Военный Осведомитель

Украинская армия минирует автомобильные и железнодорожные пути на границе с Белоруссией.

t.me

VK.com | VK

vk.com

Kharkov-Sumy.

Russian strikes landing in Kharkov region.

Colonelcassad

ВС РФ наносят ракетные удары по позициям противника в Харьковской области. Местные жители сообщают о нескольких прилетах в самом Харькове и пригородах. #Россия #Украина #Харьков @rybar https://t.me/rybar/35172

t.me

VK.com | VK

vk.com

Izyum Salient.

Russian strikes around Slavyansk continue.

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vk.com

Russian strikes, outskirts of Kramatorsk.

Операция Z: Военкоры Русской Весны

‼️ Артиллерийские бои в Славянско-Краматорской агломерации Снаряды рвутся на окраинах Краматорска t.me/RVvoenkor

t.me

There are reports that Russian forces have taken the village of Grigorivka and have taken trophies.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

LDNR Front.

Fighting near Grigoryevka, apparently a Ukrainian pickup truck ran into a Russian tank.

Свидетели Байрактара

Вот такие непростые бои за Григоровку. ВСУ все чаще используют гражданские машины. В пикап грузят пулемёт, ПТУР и ждут появления российской бронетехники. Эти парни хотели устроить засаду... не фортануло, не свезло.

t.me

It appears a Ukrainian Brimstone launcher was taken out, after being spotted performing a launch. A reminder, Ukrainian Brimstone launchers are disguised as civilian vans.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

A Russian Msta-S battery firing towards Seversk.

Murado

Артиллерийская батарея ВС РФ, состоящая из трех САУ 2С19 «Мста-С», ведет огонь на Северском направлении. Хоть это и выглядит просто, каждый выстрел из этих орудий — это сложный результат математических расчетов, вычислений, наземной и воздушной разведки и наводки. А итог — колоссальный удар по...

t.me

Russian rocket-artillery firing west of Lisichansk.

Kotsnews

Реактивная артиллерия гонит ВСУ к западу от Лисичанска, выкуривая их из лесопосадок. Красивое. @sashakots

t.me

Allegedly a column of Georgian volunteer fighters got hit on the road to Seversk.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

A truck carrying 155mm shells was apparently taken out in the woods between Lisichansk and Seversk.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

LNR fighters with a damaged, captured Ukrainian UAV that was allegedly used to drop mortar shells on them.

РЕН ТВ|Новости

Бойцы мотострелкового подразделения НМ ЛНР обнаружили под Лисичанском гексакоптер украинских военных. К аппарату крепили мины, которые он затем сбрасывал на жилые кварталы. Так было, например, в Рубежном и Кременной. В итоге беспилотник ВСУ бросили, когда спасались бегством от союзных сил...

t.me

Battle damage from a Russian strike at Druzhkovka.

Репортёр Руденко V

Дружковка( временно подконтрольная территория ВСУ) был нанесён ракетный удар по местам хранения техники и другим объектам нацистов.

t.me

Russian strike hits Konstantinovka.

Операция Z: Военкоры Русской Весны

‼️Нанесён удар по неизвестной цели в оккупированной Константиновке: огромный пожар на месте взрыва Сообщают, что столб дыма и огня поднялся на сотни метров t.me/RVvoenkor

t.me

Shellings of Donetsk and area continue.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

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vk.com

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vk.com

Gorlovka also got hit.

Репортёр Руденко V

Прилёт снаряда в дом в Горловке. Прямое попадание в дом.

t.me

Ukrainian strike landing in Alchevsk.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

LNR forces using a captured AT-105 armored truck, part of forces moving towards Seversk.

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vk.com

Russian and rebel forces moving towards Seversk.

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vk.com

Ukraine's 25th Airmobile Bde has been spotted in Artemovsk, it's notable for still using air-droppable light armor. It appears fresh Ukrainian units are arriving in the area in preparation for the inevitable Russian offensive.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

Ukrainian Mi-8 and Mi-24P near Artemovsk/Bakhmut. The Mi-24P looks like one recently handed over from iirc Czech Republic.

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vk.com

Ukrainian FV-103 Spartan APCs in Artemovsk/Bakhmut.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

Alchevsk, LNR area, allegedly HIMARS munition fragments at the site of a recent strike.

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vk.com

Операция Z: Военкоры Русской Весны

‼️ Преступление ВСУ с помощью американских РСЗО, - заявление СЦКК ЛНР По уточненной информации, в результате обстрела города Алчевск из американской РСЗО M142 HIMARS (всего противником выпущено 6 ракет) повреждено остекление и кровля 6 жилых домов, а также остекление и ограждение предприятия...

t.me

Russian National Guard distributing humanitarian aid in Stakhanov, LNR area.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

More footage of the AT-105 destroyed in Severodonetsk.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

Captured Ukrainian vehicles in display in Lisichansk. This is clearly a propaganda action aimed at the locals.

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vk.com

Russia.

In Novie Yurkovichi village, Bryansk region, a gas station was attacked by a UAV.

Оперативные сводки

t.me

Bryansk region a small explosion occurred in front of a Russian train, damaging the locomotive but failing to derail the train or destroy the tracks. Presumably Ukrainian infiltrators.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

Village Krasniy Hutor, Belgorod region, got hit.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

A captured Bayraktar, to be displayed in Kubinka, Russia.

ANNA NEWS

Трофейные "Бейрактары" будут выставлены в Кубинке По неподтверждённой информации, в Парке "Патриот" готовится экспозиция, посвящённая Специальной военной операции на Украине. В Сети появились снимки трофейного беспилотника Bayraktar TB2, который вероятно будет выставлен в рамках экспозиции...

t.me

A destroyed BTR-80 hull and a 2S3, presumably damaged, being transported in Belgorod region.

Война Глазами Журналиста

На дорогах Белгорода

t.me

Misc.

Ukrainian forces using a quadcopter to drop mines. Location and context unclear.

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vk.com

Ukrainian PzH-2000 operating, location and context unclear.

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vk.com

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vk.com

A downed Mi-8, allegedly Ukrainian. Both pilots are claimed to have survived.

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vk.com

More captured western rocket launchers.

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vk.com

Russian CASEVAC Linza MRAP, damaged by a near 155mm shell.

Центр Рубеж

Санитарный бронеавтомобиль «Линза» после близкого разрыва 155-мм снаряда. @udjat_eye

t.me

VK.com | VK

vk.com

Russian Su-35S operations, still with R-77-1s and Kh-31Ps.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

Ukrainian troop train headed to the front, location and context unclear, allegedly destination Donbas. I count 58 trucks, buses, and vans, 8 BMP-1s, 2 MT-LB CASEVACs, 9 passenger cars presumably with personnel, and 1 BRDM-2.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

Russian repair regiment operating in support of the war effort. We can see a ZSU-23-4 front and center, and a number of Msta-SM on the left side. we then see repairs on a T-80BV, BMP-1AMs and BMD-2s.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

NATO/EU.

Ukrainian soldiers training on M-270s and towed guns in Germany.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

Italian Tekne MLS Shield armored cars were apparently purchased by or for Ukraine.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

Another package of US military aid is announced, and it includes 4 more HIMARS and 1000 guided 155mm shells as well as other equipment.

Новая американская военная помощь Украине, включая 155-мм высокоточные снаряды

8 июля 2022 года министерство обороны США сообщило о предоставлении очередного нового пакета военной помощи Украине общим объемом 400 млн долларов. Таким образом, общая сумма официально выделенной Киеву американской военной помощи с начала российской специальной военной операции на Украине 24…

bmpd.livejournal.com

Ex-Czech Mi-24P in Ukrainian colors.

VK.com | VK

vk.com

 

[STURM]

It appears a Ukrainian Brimstone launcher was taken out, after being spotted performing a launch. A reminder, Ukrainian Brimstone launchers are disguised as civilian vans.

This is interesting. I have to wonder if it's the work of a local commander or whether the orders came from higher up.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/un-says-ukraine-bears-share-of-blame-for-nursing-home-attack/2022/07/09/ea608b44-ff3d-11ec-b39d-71309168014b_story.html

On a separate issue the UN has placed some blame on the Ukrainians for events which took place at an old folks home.

Whilst there is no doubt that Russia is the aggressor and has committed atrocities; ultimately there is a war on and both sides aren't completely clean so to speak; despite the tendency of many to want to believe that the Ukrainians are playing by the rules and only the Russian aren't.

Meanwhile the ''drone'' and EW war continues unabated. The Russians have become more effective with their use of UASs and EW; the Ukrainians are trying to counter that. It's worth noting that despite falling short in both areas at the start of the invasion; the Russians have a very extensive EW capability which is integrated at various levels of operations and during the fighting in the Donbas in previous years the Russians deployed UAS and EW very effectively.

Ukraine-Russia: Hidden tech war as Slovyansk battle looms

Ukrainian volunteers are taking part in a largely unseen battle to defend their territory with drones.

www.bbc.com

'A recent report by UK think tank Rusi highlighted it as a challenge Ukraine would need to address: "Russian electronic warfare is denying Ukraine a sufficiently fast kill-chain to destroy Russia's artillery". The Rusi report says the average lifespan of a Ukrainian UAV has been just seven days.
But Ukrainian forces are trying to overcome that. The supply of thousands of Space X's Starlink satellite communication systems delivered by Elon Musk has helped. It provides them with a secure internet link to their command posts, giving live drone feeds and target information.'

 

[John Fedup]

I agree, the cost benefit is simply not there. A full squadron of F16s plus training, weapons, spare parts, fuel, would get up to 2 billion $. Taking into account Russian air defenses, it is questionable how long the squadron would remain in operation. On top of that Western aircraft are not designed to operate from unprepared runways so it would be even more difficult to conceal them on the ground.

In my opinion for that money the West should be sending trucks as many as it possibly can. Ukraine has big problems transporting weapons/supplies from western Ukraine to the front and even moving units from one section of the front to another. As we have seen in a recent videos they are forced to use civilian cars or simply be on foot. The Ukrainians are in inferior position in pretty much all aspects except from man power, so it must utilize it as best as it can and be able to plug the gaps or to conduct both offensive and defensive maneuvers, and for that it needs trucks. I do not know exactly how much a truck costs (doesn't have to be new or in pristine condition, it just needs to work) but i suspect it could get 5 to 6 thousand trucks for that amount of money (including fuel). I remember my father-in-law telling me how vital the trucks (he was in command of a major supply hub) were in our own war with the super power. If you use correct tactics do not use large convoys and stay off major highways, you can supply troops at the front with minimal losses.

Some new tractors to replace the ones stolen by Russian forces would be useful as well. Harvest season is coming. Tractors are also useful for pulling transport vehicles out of ditches and poor roads.

 

[tabu]

I agree, the cost benefit is simply not there. A full squadron of F16s plus training, weapons, spare parts, fuel, would get up to 2 billion $. Taking into account Russian air defenses, it is questionable how long the squadron would remain in operation. On top of that Western aircraft are not designed to operate from unprepared runways so it would be even more difficult to conceal them on the ground.

In my opinion for that money the West should be sending trucks as many as it possibly can. Ukraine has big problems transporting weapons/supplies from western Ukraine to the front and even moving units from one section of the front to another. As we have seen in a recent videos they are forced to use civilian cars or simply be on foot. The Ukrainians are in inferior position in pretty much all aspects except from man power, so it must utilize it as best as it can and be able to plug the gaps or to conduct both offensive and defensive maneuvers, and for that it needs trucks. I do not know exactly how much a truck costs (doesn't have to be new or in pristine condition, it just needs to work) but i suspect it could get 5 to 6 thousand trucks for that amount of money (including fuel). I remember my father-in-law telling me how vital the trucks (he was in command of a major supply hub) were in our own war with the super power. If you use correct tactics do not use large convoys and stay off major highways, you can supply troops at the front with minimal losses.

It is not a question of increasing or retaining the fleet of aircraft, but of being able to shoot down Russian aircraft in air battles.

I thought it was clear to everyone here on this forum, and to most people involved in aviation, that the Ukrainian MiG-29 and Su-27 do not have active boosters. While the Russians do have them. Shall I explain what it means? I think you should have this.
I think you should explain it, as you are advising to give the Ukrainians trucks instead of planes.

So to shoot down a Russian plane a Ukrainian pilot has to keep it in his sights and irradiate it until it hits. At the same time Russian, after capturing an active RGSN target, can leave the kill zone of Ukrainian missile. Chances to shoot down a Russian aircraft in one-on-one combat for a Ukrainian pilot are practically zero. And I am not even mentioning the target detection range (which the Russians have more), target acquisition range, and the range of missiles themselves! All Ukrainian and MiGs and Su can not equal the Russians. Adding more MiGs will not do much for the Ukrainians.

The Ukrainians need long-range air-to-air missile carriers and the missiles themselves. No one will want to integrate the AIM-120 on MiG-29 and Su-27, and it will take a long time. Therefore, in order to somehow improve the chances of the Ukrainian air force against the Russians, the Ukrainians need at least some western combat aircraft with western long-range missiles with active homing heads.

No one is going to fly in and seize air supremacy with a squadron or several squadrons of, say, F-16s. Ukrainians need them to cover the skies reliably. And not to lose vehicles and pilots in air battles in which Ukrainians do not stand a chance.

As for destruction on the ground, please remember that all the missile strikes on airfields, and there were hundreds of them, did not destroy either Ukrainian air defenses or Ukrainian planes. That and Russian strategists finally realised - missiles on airfields no longer fly.

 

[STURM]

I thought it was clear to everyone here on this forum, and to most people involved in aviation, that the Ukrainian MiG-29 and Su-27 do not have active boosters

It's certainly not clear to me. I have zero idea what an "active booster" is.

Therefore, in order to somehow improve the chances of the Ukrainian air force against the Russians, the Ukrainians need at least some western combat aircraft with western long-range missiles with active homing

I was under the impression they need a lot more than that; early warning; effective C3; the ability to integrate air power with other things; a cadre of trained pilots which can be expanded; a proper ground support infrastructure; etc.

That and Russian strategists finally realised - missiles on airfields no longer fly.

A lesson learnt a long long time time ago is that shutting down an airfield is not easy. It also becomes somewhat harder when the airfield is expecting to be attacked; has decoys; adequate dispersal areas and reconstruction teams.

 

[tabu]

It's certainly not clear to me. I have zero idea what an "active booster"

SORRY,

" I thought it was clear to everyone here on this forum, and to most people involved in aviation, that the Ukrainian MiG-29 and Su-27 do not have an active radar homing head (AGH) ."

 

[STURM]

Do you mean the aircraft per see don't have active radar homing heads or the missiles they are armed with don't have them?

The inability of either side to gain a clear advantage is due to several factors; not necessarily a lack of certain types of ordnance by one side or platform related deficiencies.

I'll draw your attention to this excellent discussion which you may or may not have already seen.

 

[Feanor]

Hence this article from TWZ (from April 2022):

Just Pick A Fighter And Start Training Ukrainian Pilots On It As Soon As Possible

Ukraine's pilots should have been in training yesterday and there are plenty of second-hand fighter options to accommodate their needs.

www.thedrive.com

The US could start training a batch of Ukrainian aviators that would themselves become instructors for future batches, at no cost.
Then it can decide which fighter it wants to finish their training with (and sell). Or just cancel.

There is no public information to confirm the US did this. There is also no information indicating otherwise...

What reinforces the probability that this DOES happen, is the fact the post-war Ukraine, in or out of NATO, will have to buy western aircraft - i.e F-15/16/18.

This isn't news. Post '14 any Ukraine, part of NATO or not, was basically going to be looking at western aircraft. Russian was off the table from that moment. The problem now is the same as then. Who's going to pay? Pre-war Ukraine's economy couldn't support supplying boots and body armor appropriately to the military, nevermind fighter jets. Fighter jets are very expensive to purchase, western ones more so. They're very expensive to operate. And some refurbished F-16A/Bs out of storage without major upgrades don't offer a major advantage over Ukraine's current inventory. I can't imagine post-War Ukraine will be better of economically at least in the short term, likely in the medium term too. This isn't just a case of supplying Ukraine some used jets from storage with some modern missiles and calling it a day. In all likelihood the Ukrainian military will only remain functional with significant and continued foreign aid. Who's going to foot the bill for a Ukrainian fighter jet program advanced and capable enough to wage an airwar against Russia?

 

[tabu]

Do you mean the aircraft per see don't have active radar homing heads or the missiles they are armed with don't have them?

I mean that the Ukrainian MiG-29 and Su-27 do not have active radar-guided missiles.

The Ukrainians could have had it all, but were greedy in 2020, when the Israelis could have modernised the Ukrainian air force.

Израильская фирма превратит древние украинские МиГи в современные истребители

Власти Израиля утвердили этот проект, несмотря на некоторые политические аспекты.

www.9tv.co.il

In particular, the Israelis wanted to do the hard work of combining modern electronic weapons control techniques with the MiG's main weapon systems, especially the medium-range R-27 air-to-air and air-to-ground homing missiles.

And yet 40 million for every obsolete aircraft without missiles that can break down at any moment was too much. For that kind of money, you could already get an F16 in a normal configuration, with decent armaments.
But they didn't, and that was an unforgivable mistake.