Blas de Lezo
Member
My apologies outsider, for the life of me I cannot remember where I heard it, whether was radio, TV, internet, printed news in Spanish or English, I will keep trying to remember and I will post it (unless I was dreaming). 
The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter overlander
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I think a little bit of paranoia is breaking out here. The schedule gives enough leeway to drop a couple of days in Portsmouth and the fuel to get back is almost certainly less expensive than the cost of flying out and back (perhaps multiple flights for parts if the fault is mis-diagnosed) engineers and parts, paying the overtime and re-stocking the food if the repairs take too long.
Illustrious has 6 Merlins on board so they're not short of transport possibilities.
Unless ..... the real reason is that Illustrious has captured an alien, they've stuck it in the fridge to keep it fresh and too many people would see it if it was transferred to Culdrose by helicopter and then to Area 51.
WillS
My apologies outsider, for the life of me I cannot remember where I heard it, whether was radio, TV, internet, printed news in Spanish or English, I will keep trying to remember and I will post it (unless I was dreaming).
Thanks for trying Blas de Lezo. I doubt that you dreamt it. I know that the war games are taking place in February, as it was announced in November, but they didn't give the exact date.
RN short of Fixed/Rotary pilots and aircrew
A report from the Aviation week site gives some rather alarming numbers on pilot and aircrew shortfalls in the RN:
This is what happens when you run down a service, especially in time of war. Experienced personnel head for the exit because of over-stretch and the knowledge they could be earning far more in the private sector. New recruits are short on the ground because the impression is given that joining the RN is not a good long-term career move.
WillS
A report from the Aviation week site gives some rather alarming numbers on pilot and aircrew shortfalls in the RN:
This is what happens when you run down a service, especially in time of war. Experienced personnel head for the exit because of over-stretch and the knowledge they could be earning far more in the private sector. New recruits are short on the ground because the impression is given that joining the RN is not a good long-term career move.
WillS
Blas de Lezo
Member
I have given enough reasons why I think is strange, and as I recall non of them involved aliens, and I seriously do not understand all this talk about flying parts.
Illustrious fast cruises at about 20Knots so it could not be further than 960 miles away.
Place that into a map and you will see how silly it looks to waste a week and 6 days of sailing. (for a fridge)
A containership crosses the Atlantic from Newark to Felixtowe in 8 days .(just to put things into perspective)
Illustrious was not crossing the Atlantic , but bordering the Atlantic coast of Europe so turning a ship because of a fridge and all this “flying” required to fix it just makes no sense at all, just like Area 51
Illustrious fast cruises at about 20Knots so it could not be further than 960 miles away.
Place that into a map and you will see how silly it looks to waste a week and 6 days of sailing. (for a fridge)
A containership crosses the Atlantic from Newark to Felixtowe in 8 days .(just to put things into perspective)
Illustrious was not crossing the Atlantic , but bordering the Atlantic coast of Europe so turning a ship because of a fridge and all this “flying” required to fix it just makes no sense at all, just like Area 51
Super Nimrod
New Member
Slight further delay
http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/latest/Illustrious-sailing-delayed-again.3709057.jp
http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/latest/Illustrious-sailing-delayed-again.3709057.jp
Orion 08 seems to be a RN affair with 2 AEGIS ships for company an F100 and interestingly USS Cole
My apologies outsider, for the life of me I cannot remember where I heard it, whether was radio, TV, internet, printed news in Spanish or English, I will keep trying to remember and I will post it (unless I was dreaming).
Blas de Lezo, even if you can't remember where you heard about the Iran war games, can you remember, even approximately the date given for the start of the exercises? Many Thanks.
For those interested. The Iran exercises are in Feb.
Look, you guys have been one of the most level headed, keen observers of the Royal Navy on the internet and I've read through every page of this thread over the months... I find it interesting how much skepticism there is regarding the refrigerator story.
I've observed naval deployments for nearly a decade, and I don't get the sense there is anything special about this one except it has the characteristics of a task force one would have commonly seen operating together during the cold war.
Very interesting.
Look, you guys have been one of the most level headed, keen observers of the Royal Navy on the internet and I've read through every page of this thread over the months... I find it interesting how much skepticism there is regarding the refrigerator story.
I've observed naval deployments for nearly a decade, and I don't get the sense there is anything special about this one except it has the characteristics of a task force one would have commonly seen operating together during the cold war.
Very interesting.
Latest reports state the fridge (pretty big by all accounts) has been emptied and repairs started. The driver being they didn't want it breaking down or operating below par in hot conditions. The last thing you want is to start slinging rotten meat overboard, or worse have cases of food poisoning breaking out amonst the crew. It was a simple precautionary measure, taking it back to blighty meant you had the engineers and spare parts on stand-by. The exercise will not be delayed, end of story.
Better safe than sorry!
Better safe than sorry!
Royal Navy funding.
The recent defence committee report from the House of Commons suggested that the Ministry of Defence was 'living in a dreamworld' if it thought that all of the current equipment programs could be sustained out the budget currently allocated.
I wonder if this story, spotted today, will have an impact?
It essentially relates that the UK telecoms regulator is allowing UK public bodies to sell on wireless spectrum that have been allocated to them but which are surplus to their needs. According to the report the UK public sector has surplus wireless spectrum licences worth "up to £20bn", and the MoD owns about a third of that.
The article makes mention of the CVF delay, which is rapidly becoming a fact as far as the press is concerned (clever government leaks to blunt the impact of the actual announcement?). Normal recent practice has been that the MoD is allowed to benefit from cost savings it makes rather than have them taking into account in the next, lower, spending settlement.
WillS
The recent defence committee report from the House of Commons suggested that the Ministry of Defence was 'living in a dreamworld' if it thought that all of the current equipment programs could be sustained out the budget currently allocated.
I wonder if this story, spotted today, will have an impact?
It essentially relates that the UK telecoms regulator is allowing UK public bodies to sell on wireless spectrum that have been allocated to them but which are surplus to their needs. According to the report the UK public sector has surplus wireless spectrum licences worth "up to £20bn", and the MoD owns about a third of that.
The article makes mention of the CVF delay, which is rapidly becoming a fact as far as the press is concerned (clever government leaks to blunt the impact of the actual announcement?). Normal recent practice has been that the MoD is allowed to benefit from cost savings it makes rather than have them taking into account in the next, lower, spending settlement.
WillS
windscorpion
New Member
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,,2250489,00.html
Not good reading, especially for the Navy. Lucky to get 6 T45s?!
Not good reading, especially for the Navy. Lucky to get 6 T45s?!
for god sake a tech site and the guardian do not make accurate sources for details of the Royal navy Gorden Brown as already denied that there will be a CVF delay to defense select commite.
8 T45 are planed and 8 T45 will get
Whilst I agree with your general tone, the spectrum auction and the link to defence funding is widely reported outside of the Graundiad and a few tech publications.
And in my opinion it's a good thing, if the Govt allows the MoD to treat the spectrum sales in the same way as the sale of surplus defence estates, in other words they are treated as 'property' of the MoD from which the MoD should profit.
As for the 45s and the CVF. I'm still not convinced the RN will get 8 T45s but I certainly don't rule it out and a delay in the the in service dates for the carriers by a year or two wouldn't be the end of the world considering that the F35 program looks like running into similar delays.
I suppose a good point could be made that operating the GR9s from the first CVF will at least allow the RN to polish large carrier operating doctrine, so the sooner we get them the better. But even the money was available with no constraints there would inevitably be some delays in the CVF build .... that just seems to be the way that large defence projects run at the moment.
More worrying for me is that one of the articles I read on the subject of the spectrum sale speculated that a short delay to the CVF build wouldn't be a calamity for UK ship builders as they'll have plenty of work with the MARS program. My understanding of MARS was that many of the hulls were to be foreign built (certainly the tankers) and a considerable saving was anticipated as a result. With only the final fit out of the specialised military kit taking place in the UK.
If that strategy is now being questioned in order to provide job continuity at UK shipyards (in marginal constituencies) then the MoD is going to be, once again, paying over the odds for UK built kit when overseas alternatives are available at a better price. Understandable in areas where's there's an industrial/strategic issue of technology maintenance but not in this case.
WillS
windscorpion
New Member
yeah i hope you are right, actually i am normally a glass half full guy but i guess these continual reports is grinding down my optimism!
Yes, if information is posted by Reuters or Associated Press on the internet, just about anyone with journalist credentials can access it...
C'mon! Have you seen how BIG the bleeding thing is gonna be?, How complex it will be to build??
How long did it take the US to design & build the 1st Nimitz?? (I reckon at least 8 - 14 years !) .
HMS Daring was based on the Project Horizon / CNGF design, contract was signed in 2000, steel cut in 2003, launched in 2005 & nearly 3 years later, she's still being "completed" (that's 8 years since contract signature!).
CVF is approximately 6 times the size in physical dimensions, weighs in at 65,000 tonnes. Their baseline design still hasn't been frozen yet, & they haven't cut steel.
All that said, because of the complexity & size, there will be further delays inherent in the project, as there's no way the 1st ship is gonna be ready for handover in 2014!
Spectrum sale aside, the info that's out there at the moment on "further delays to CVF", is a bit vague. I believe that that there WILL be issues with manning if the build isn't started soon.
As for your understanding of MARS..., well at the moment there is a tender for 6 vessels. Over the lifetime of the project (between now & 2020??), I believe it's for a build of approx. 27 vessels, but I'm sure that I will be corrected on that.
I do, however, take slight umbridge at your comments on "marginal constituencies". I mean, how many shipyards are built in inner-city, land locked, prime English constituencies, bearing in mind that the definition on constituencies being prime / marginal is all to do with their importance in an election.
Secondly, how many ship yards are left in the UK?? (less than 10 !)
How many were left in 1997 when labour took over ?? (less than 15!)
How many where there in say 1979 - 1980 when the Torrie's took over?? (over 30 !)
...And since 1979 - 1980, has European shipbuilding production/number of shipyards been affected? Is it directly proportional to the number of yards that have been shut in the UK??
General apathy of the UK public & opinion/feelings similar to your own thoughts, has allowed our leadership to sell heavy industry off to the highest bidder/biggest profit, as long as the corporations & their shareholders make money!
I think it's about time we took a leaf out the American note-book & ENSURED that all "military usage / grey painted ships" came under the banner built in the UK ONLY!
Doing so will ENSURE we have the capability to build our own vessels, something that the US Govt & DoD are actually trying to build in to their future plans for the navy over the next 50 years !
Systems Adict
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Unfortunately, many of the shipyards are owned by increasingly multi-national corporations. Even in America, the Austal design is expected to win the LCS bid, a Australian mult-national with an American shipyard.
While the British should insist on building ships in the United Kingdom, it may be time to look at other ships designed from allied navies or have joint designs. I think much design work is duplicated when the Dutch and Spanish have joint designed LPDs and AORs whereas the British pay the full develpoment costs for their designs of LPDs and AORs. Much like the Horizon/Daring class destroyers, Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers, and FREEM class frigates.
I think to get a cheaper cost, multi-national shipyards need to compete with each other to win contracts at cost, not cost plus. It appear to me a lot of wasted funds are being spent on final development costs.
While the British should insist on building ships in the United Kingdom, it may be time to look at other ships designed from allied navies or have joint designs. I think much design work is duplicated when the Dutch and Spanish have joint designed LPDs and AORs whereas the British pay the full develpoment costs for their designs of LPDs and AORs. Much like the Horizon/Daring class destroyers, Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers, and FREEM class frigates.
I think to get a cheaper cost, multi-national shipyards need to compete with each other to win contracts at cost, not cost plus. It appear to me a lot of wasted funds are being spent on final development costs.
Sorry Sea Toby, but the UK HAS being doing the very things you describe.
The 4 Bay class LSD(A)'s are based on a Dutch / Royal Schelde's Enforcer design.
The Type 45 Daring class are loosely based on the CNGF / FREM design that the French/Italian's are currently manufacturing (albeit that they are highly changed in design to meet UK/RN "requirements").
And as for cost-plus contracts.
...Well as far as I'm aware the only one that's still on the go is the one for the Astutes (4 off).
As with most recent contracts, (in the last 3-4 years), I'm led to believe that there's an agreement of full visibility of costs between the likes of BAE & the UK MoD, so that if something gets damaged in build & needs replaced in a hurry, the parts can be purchased, at over the odds from the OEM.
I say over the odds, as in most Military procurement contracts it's always been the case that if you order parts as part of a contract, they have to be ordered early, get planned into a build/delivery schedule, made, delivered & fitted to the ship/sub/aircraft, as most of the these parts are bespoke / specialist / made to order, not COTS. So if you need to replace one of these parts, it means possibly breaking into a production programme, delaying someone else's build, even having to re-tool a manufacturing line. This has to be paid for, & is usually charged at a premium(quite often 20-33% additional cost of the original product)!
On a slightly different topic, just a quick thought.
The Royal Navy is currently conducting two major deployments\exercises, one to Norway (HM ships Albion, Bulwark, Ark Royal) and one to the Middle East (a carrier strike group led by HMS Illustrious).
Could it be that this is a way for the navy brass to show the world that the Royal Navy is still capable of deploying two major battle groups similtaneously? (albeit in a multi-national environment)
I know that these deployments are scheduled a long time in advance.. but in light of the recent negative press reports i can't help wondering..
The Royal Navy is currently conducting two major deployments\exercises, one to Norway (HM ships Albion, Bulwark, Ark Royal) and one to the Middle East (a carrier strike group led by HMS Illustrious).
Could it be that this is a way for the navy brass to show the world that the Royal Navy is still capable of deploying two major battle groups similtaneously? (albeit in a multi-national environment)
I know that these deployments are scheduled a long time in advance.. but in light of the recent negative press reports i can't help wondering..
A £35m contract for modifying Rosyth docks to accommodate the building of the UK's two new carriers, which includes the widening of its entrance, was signed yesterday. The total investment in Rosyth will finally amount to £50m which will also provide for the necessary equipment to be purchased, such as the 'Goliath' crane and hauling gear. Report by MOD.
We continue to crawl forward, lets hope the decision to cut steel is confirmed soon!
We continue to crawl forward, lets hope the decision to cut steel is confirmed soon!