The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

Ananda

The Bunker Group
There are rumours circulating in Indonesian Defense and Finance Guys circles on interest toward Waves class Tankers to replace Rover class Tanker ex RAN procure in 90's. This come as reported TNI-AL need larger tankers then the ones being build by local shipyard. Those 3000+ DWT Tankers from local yards capable of liquid and dry Logistics. However seems being plan to support fleet of Corvettes and Light Frigates for Green Water operations.

With PPA and FMP and potentially other 5500-6000 DWT Frigates being inducted in which more suit for longer range operations, it is seems being talk by TNI-AL sources the need for longer range and larger Tankers and Logistics support ships needed.

Well off course this is just rumours, but Prabowo's now heading to London after G20 meeting in Brazil. So will see, as before the rumours are talks in getting ex RAF C-130J to augment brand new C-130J from US.
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
So the aspirations of politicians returning to the halcyon days of the UK being a world power are crumbling and fading. The commitment to the concept of the Littoral Response Group (LRG) is looking increasing unlikely as LRG-N and LRG-S look to be able to draw from only 3 ships. The idea that 2 OPVs deployed to the Indo-Pacific region is the UK returning to world power projection smacks more of colonial gunboat diplomacy and Colonel Blimp. Real power projection would require 2 - 3 frigates (perhaps Type 31s) and a support ship (Tide class tanker) to be based long term in the region.

The replacement of the RN amphibious fleet is supposed to be 3 - 6 MRSS (Multi Role Support Ships) covering the LPDs (2), LSDs (3) and RFA Argus. The rub is that the replacement project has not been formally created (possibly waiting until after SDR2025). Also with 2 of the ships being decommissioned in early 2025 there will be little justification for more than 3 or perhaps 4 ships to be ordered when the project gets to that stage in maybe 10 years time.

The other cuts announced (14 CH-47 and 17 SA-330 Pumas plus other things), not RN specific, probably should be discussed in a general UK Defence thread.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
'Even before the defence review has begun, five Royal Navy warships are to be scrapped ... The Defence Secretary confirmed in Parliament today that five RN warships are to be scrapped as a cost-saving measure".

The vessels are listed as:
  • HMS Bulwark and Albion (LPD's)
  • HMS Northumberland (Type 23 frigate)
  • RFA Wave Ruler and RFA Wave Knight (fast fleet tankers)
The commentary seems to varied from angry, to resigned, to I told you so etc.
Northumberland is described as having a rotten hull. There is no point in trying to save her, it would be throwing good money after bad, not least because she's had a long life with 20 30 years service. Much better than other decisions to axe escorts, such as the sale of Grafton only after nine years in service.

Bulwark and Albion are also pretty old. Although theoretically they could serve on another couple of years, as noted they don't have crew available. If money needs to be saved then it makes sense to axe them now. Realistically they were unlikely to be involved in anything other than relief operations before they were retired.

The tankers also have a crewing problem. They probably could have lasted a fair bit longer in service, but the Tide-class are a lot more important. If they're properly crewed, then that should be all the RN needs. Plus we could probably buy another two brand-new tankers from South Korea if we really needed them for not a lot. The savings of retiring the above five ships early would more than cover the cost, to say nothing of what might be earned from sales.

My assessment:

1. Northumberland - smart, if not inevitable, decision;
2. Bulwark and Albion - not ideal but little loss in the short term; and
3. Wave Ruler and Knight - unfortunate, but if the money goes on something more important then reasonable.

None of this means that the Defence Review will be good for the Royal Navy. But these are the sorts of decisions I expect would have been made next year, so it's better they were done now with money to be saved and maybe some sales on top.

EDIT: Good opinion piece here on all the RN announcements.

 
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Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
'Even before the defence review has begun, five Royal Navy warships are to be scrapped ... The Defence Secretary confirmed in Parliament today that five RN warships are to be scrapped as a cost-saving measure".

The vessels are listed as:
  • HMS Bulwark and Albion (LPD's)
  • HMS Northumberland (Type 23 frigate)
  • RFA Wave Ruler and RFA Wave Knight (fast fleet tankers)
The commentary seems to varied from angry, to resigned, to I told you so etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if RFA Fort Victoria is next on the chopping block, noting she's been placed into long term lay-up, due to crewing & maintenance issues. Cheers RFA Fort Victoria to be placed in long-term lay up | Navy Lookout
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Albion and Bulwark will likely be of value to someone, they might be 20 years old but they have both spent a lot of time in reserve.

They have presumably not been run into the ground like the Type 23’s have.

It probably doesn’t help that they require a fairly large crew compared to the similarly sized Bay class.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Albion and Bulwark will likely be of value to someone, they might be 20 years old but they have both spent a lot of time in reserve.

They have presumably not been run into the ground like the Type 23’s have.

It probably doesn’t help that they require a fairly large crew compared to the similarly sized Bay class.
But not similarly capable Bay class
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Northumberland is described as having a rotten hull. There is no point in trying to save her, it would be throwing good money after bad,
I can't help wondering why that wasn't picked up earlier.

I remember the out of service dates of the Type 23s being pushed into the future, quite a few years ago, along with Type 26 delivery being delayed. Again, I can't help wondering how carefully that was thought through & what technical evaluations were done.

BTW,
not least because she's had a long life with 20 years service
Typo? Commissioned 1994.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I can't help wondering why that wasn't picked up earlier.

I remember the out of service dates of the Type 23s being pushed into the future, quite a few years ago, along with Type 26 delivery being delayed. Again, I can't help wondering how carefully that was thought through & what technical evaluations were done.

BTW,

Typo? Commissioned 1994.
Quite often you can't see they full structural state until a ship is in deep refit.

What also happens with cost and schedule pressures during availabilities is that PMs skip survey and test work required for future availabilities because they don't impact their KPIs. This means those planning future availabilities don't have the full picture.

The way I push it (and PMs hate me for it), is if you don't have data you need to assume the worst case going forward.

Far too often planning is done on best case assumptions, ignoring technical risk. I reframe technical risk as schedule risk, with the mitigation being surveys and tests to provide real data on the actual condition, well out from the availability.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
I can't help wondering why that wasn't picked up earlier.

I remember the out of service dates of the Type 23s being pushed into the future, quite a few years ago, along with Type 26 delivery being delayed. Again, I can't help wondering how carefully that was thought through & what technical evaluations were done.

BTW,

Typo? Commissioned 1994.
From my hull survey days, this kind of damage is only picked up through either physical tank inspections and/or NDT, such as ultrasonics. Having crawled through my share of tanks, this is a very hit and miss technique. Tanks are cramped, dark and there are large areas, where it just doesn't matter how tiny and flexible you are you just can't fit. It's mostly all mk1 eyeball as well, because it's hard enough to get in yourself let alone with testing equipment. I've done some work with drones, but it is still limited and visual only.

Ultrasonic thickness testing is good, and can be easily done from the outside during dry docking, but it only tests a local area (testing 10% of a hull would be a big task) and from this position doesn't test any of the internal stringers and stiffners (which rely on the above mk1 eyeball).

Some of the very modern phased array ultrasonic systems can do large areas quickly, however they are hideously expensive and require a phd in rocket science to understand.

Some corrosion can happen reasonably quickly as well. I remember a case of microbial corrosion that ate a tank away in about a six month period.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
From my hull survey days, this kind of damage is only picked up through either physical tank inspections and/or NDT, such as ultrasonics. Having crawled through my share of tanks, this is a very hit and miss technique. Tanks are cramped, dark and there are large areas, where it just doesn't matter how tiny and flexible you are you just can't fit. It's mostly all mk1 eyeball as well, because it's hard enough to get in yourself let alone with testing equipment. I've done some work with drones, but it is still limited and visual only.

Ultrasonic thickness testing is good, and can be easily done from the outside during dry docking, but it only tests a local area (testing 10% of a hull would be a big task) and from this position doesn't test any of the internal stringers and stiffners (which rely on the above mk1 eyeball).

Some of the very modern phased array ultrasonic systems can do large areas quickly, however they are hideously expensive and require a phd in rocket science to understand.

Some corrosion can happen reasonably quickly as well. I remember a case of microbial corrosion that ate a tank away in about a six month period.
The Type 23 has been around for a long time (~30 yrs) and is a sizable fleet (16 units).

While operational tempo, deployment location might differ hull to hull, I think @swerve 's point is there should be sufficient data points at the fleet level to factor those activities that you mention into the hull management and refit plans to try to anticipate those issues.

I'm no naval architect but it strikes me as weird since you get ships like the ex-USCG Hamilton class operating operating in very hash environments (e.g Bering Straits) for 5 / 6 decades but they still seems structurally fine.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
The Type 23 has been around for a long time (~30 yrs) and is a sizable fleet (16 units).

While operational tempo, deployment location might differ hull to hull, I think @swerve 's point is there should be sufficient data points at the fleet level to factor those activities that you mention into the hull management and refit plans to try to anticipate those issues.

I'm no naval architect but it strikes me as weird since you get ships like the ex-USCG Hamilton class operating operating in very hash environments (e.g Bering Straits) for 5 / 6 decades but they still seems structurally fine.
They were designed to be cheap, relatively basic ships with a planned structural/operational life of 18 years.

Some of these ships are now getting close to double the service life they were designed/engineered for.

What was sort of service life and operational profile were the Hamilton class designed and engineered for. Are you comparing Apples to Apples? Or are you comparing them to Oranges?
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
I remember the Americans found similar corrosion issues with the Ticonderogas as they went through the recent life extensions to keep them around for a few more years. They tended to find it mid overhaul and more extensive than thought as well.

Not suprisingly, I will suggest its a 30 year old ship issue. Our well used ANZACs are starting to see a similar theme.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
From my hull survey days, this kind of damage is only picked up through either physical tank inspections and/or NDT, such as ultrasonics. Having crawled through my share of tanks, this is a very hit and miss technique. Tanks are cramped, dark and there are large areas, where it just doesn't matter how tiny and flexible you are you just can't fit. It's mostly all mk1 eyeball as well, because it's hard enough to get in yourself let alone with testing equipment. I've done some work with drones, but it is still limited and visual only.

Ultrasonic thickness testing is good, and can be easily done from the outside during dry docking, but it only tests a local area (testing 10% of a hull would be a big task) and from this position doesn't test any of the internal stringers and stiffners (which rely on the above mk1 eyeball).

Some of the very modern phased array ultrasonic systems can do large areas quickly, however they are hideously expensive and require a phd in rocket science to understand.

Some corrosion can happen reasonably quickly as well. I remember a case of microbial corrosion that ate a tank away in about a six month period.

The issues with T23's are more around structure / design & how hard they have been worked, rather than 'rust & corrosion'. Mid-life updates addressed some of these issues, but hull flex & fatigue cracks in the areas in question only really get picked up now, as the technology has moved on since the early 2000's & the need to have a vessel that will continue to be worked hard, means that 'life-extensions' really means that you have to strip everything out / go back to bare metal.

Overall, it is well understood in tier 2 & 3 naval circles, that the RN generally have well designed ships that will usually last closer to 40 years. The costs of upkeep & the CONOPS / CONUSE of the RN is often very different from these nations & continuity of fleet equipment often means that they either have older RN vessels in their inventory & access to the spares, or are prepared to remove 'older' components & replace them with local / regional equivalents.

Albion & Bulwark - Built in the very late 90's, not completed until 2001 / 2003 (I know because I worked on em !). before being handed over to the RN. As stated elsewhere, they haven't exactly had their necks wrung, so at just over 20 years old they would be a good purchase for the likes of Brazil / Chile / India / Pakistan / Indonesia, if they have the 'need' for a multi role / multi capability vessel.

Fort Victoria - COULD be a good 2nd hand purchase, but ONLY if the country in question is prepared to dry dock her for about 2 - 5 years & gut the engine rooms / running gear / replace most of the pipework systems / HVAC / Firefighting, while retro-fitting Combat Systems.
Time & cost heavy exercise for a ship the was commissioned in the late 80's / early 90's.

WAVE Class - similar ages to Albion & Bulwark, but are limited by their top speed ! AGAIN, ideal purchase for Tier 2 or 3 navies to replace any ex- WW2 / Pre 1990's / single skinned tankers.


SA
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
UK Defence Journal has reported the response to a question in parliament regarding the MRSS. The first of the vessels are supposed to enter service in 2033. The rub is that the remaining 4 vessels (3 Bay class LSDs and the Aviation support ship Argus) providing amphibious capability in a limited form are supposed to be retired in 2034. The question of the number of MRSS to be acquired has always been vague, with comments of "up to 6" being made previously (which was when there were 2 LPDs as well as the current vessels). Now the response (by Maria Eagle, Minister of State for Defence) in parliament states:

“The Multi-Role Support Ship programme will recapitalise the Royal Navy’s amphibious fleet, which consists of the three Bay class landing ships (RFA Lyme Bay, Mounts Bay, and Cardigan Bay) and RFA Argus, which provides medical and aviation support. These vessels are planned to leave service by 2034, with MRSS intended to replace them.”

That would suggest the number of MRSS to be bought will now be "up to 4". The other question still to be answered is whether they will be RN commissioned vessels or RFA vessels.
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
UK Defence Journal has reported the response to a question in parliament regarding the MRSS. The first of the vessels are supposed to enter service in 2033. The rub is that the remaining 4 vessels (3 Bay class LSDs and the Aviation support ship Argus) providing amphibious capability in a limited form are supposed to be retired in 2034. The question of the number of MRSS to be acquired has always been vague, with comments of "up to 6" being made previously (which was when there were 2 LPDs as well as the current vessels). Now the response (by Maria Eagle, Minister of State for Defence) in parliament states:

“The Multi-Role Support Ship programme will recapitalise the Royal Navy’s amphibious fleet, which consists of the three Bay class landing ships (RFA Lyme Bay, Mounts Bay, and Cardigan Bay) and RFA Argus, which provides medical and aviation support. These vessels are planned to leave service by 2034, with MRSS intended to replace them.”

That would suggest the number of MRSS to be bought will now be "up to 4". The other question still to be answered is whether they will be RN commissioned vessels or RFA vessels.
Navy Lookout has published an article which adds further doubt to the number of vessels that are available to support UK amphibious operations. Of the 3 remaining Bay class LSD(A)s only 1 (RFA Lyme Bay) is currently available as the other 2 have entered or are about to enter refit, although 1 is reportedly to be laid up and the refit deferred to 2026. The additional point of concern is that RFA Argus, meant to support LSG-S, was supposed to complete its Assisted Maintenance Period in December 2024 but emerging defects have delayed this until March 2025.
So an amphibious capability notionally based on 6 ships has been reduced to 1 ship through a combination of politically driven financial expediency and ongoing underfunding of maintenance and support facilities as well as timely replacement of aging vessels.
 
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