John Fedup
The Bunker Group
....which starts the T31 metamorphosis into something similar to the T26. Might as well just face reality and figure out a way to build more T26s.
The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter overlander
- Start date
Yeah - but its painted Haze Grey and has a pointy bow with a red ensign. That means the moment the smelly stuff hits the fan, everyone will forget that whole "low end" tag and it'll be acting as a missile catcher in a near peer war.
Which is (as has been pointed out several time) exactly what happened to the 21s.
Depending on which vessel is chosen one of them has the potential to be a fully functional frigate, the other will always be an enlarged patrol vessel.
Low-end tasks such as intercepting drug smugglers, illegal immigrants and pirates could be easily handled by OPVs or patrol boats.
I wouldn't want to be conducting Freedom of Navigation exercises in the South China Sea or enforcing sanctions with anything less than fully functional Frigate with excellent anti-missile and anti-submarine capabilities.
I wouldn't want to be conducting Freedom of Navigation exercises in the South China Sea or enforcing sanctions with anything less than fully functional Frigate with excellent anti-missile and anti-submarine capabilities.
I hope you meant a "White Ensign"
... and Haze Grey is the USN (and now RAN) colour, the RN colour is certainly different and is almost certainly called something else (other than "ship side grey"), but the meaning was clear!I hope you meant a "White Ensign"
Sorry, typing while doing something else, but yeah, sentiments I still feel are spot on - first time the balloon goes up, they'll be in the firing line.
I suspect the price point is a bit too low for comfort to be honest but we'll know more before March I guess. Mainly, spec and price aside, it's important steel is cut on these ships asap or we'll end up nursing the Type 23 through senescence at hugely increasing costs vs utility.
I am split on these ships - my reservations are that it seems strange to stand up a production run for five ships with all the start up costs, design work etc to get something cheaper than Type 26, and against that, it's partly interesting to see if there'd be a possible follow up run of more hulls, - leading to a possible expansion of fleet numbers.
I suspect type 31e may be fairly exportable as well, if the design works out - Arrowhead in particular could be promising.
I just did not expect to be sitting here, looking at a bid restart right now.
I suspect the price point is a bit too low for comfort to be honest but we'll know more before March I guess. Mainly, spec and price aside, it's important steel is cut on these ships asap or we'll end up nursing the Type 23 through senescence at hugely increasing costs vs utility.
I am split on these ships - my reservations are that it seems strange to stand up a production run for five ships with all the start up costs, design work etc to get something cheaper than Type 26, and against that, it's partly interesting to see if there'd be a possible follow up run of more hulls, - leading to a possible expansion of fleet numbers.
I suspect type 31e may be fairly exportable as well, if the design works out - Arrowhead in particular could be promising.
I just did not expect to be sitting here, looking at a bid restart right now.
I was worried by some of the suggestions of very small vessels, but yes, Arrowhead looks promising, & Leander's in a class which still seems to be attractive to some navies. It's about the same size as the ANZACs, or marginally bigger. I'd prefer something like FTI, though: just that bit more room to fit everything in.
I'm also split on it. Type 26 was supposed to be reasonably priced, especially with carrying over equipment from updated T23s, but it's turning out much more expensive (where did all the money go?). But for that increase, I'd say no argument, just build GP T26s. But given the price of T26, a cheaper hull looks attractive. It actually looks possible to save money even with the cost of setting up, & even if it costs a bit more than £250 mn.
Exportability? Well,there's a market for warships smaller than T26, as TKMS, Damen, etc. show.
I'm also split on it. Type 26 was supposed to be reasonably priced, especially with carrying over equipment from updated T23s, but it's turning out much more expensive (where did all the money go?). But for that increase, I'd say no argument, just build GP T26s. But given the price of T26, a cheaper hull looks attractive. It actually looks possible to save money even with the cost of setting up, & even if it costs a bit more than £250 mn.
Exportability? Well,there's a market for warships smaller than T26, as TKMS, Damen, etc. show.
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All though there is the fact that Argentinian interest in buying surplus Vulcans was rejected on concerns over the security of the Falklands and that Westminster let it be known that SSNs may or may not have been patrolling the waters around the Falklands. The threat / possibility of Argentinian aggression was known and measures were taken, including the relived RM security force remaining to bolster the relieving force.
It definitely wasn't entirely, or even mostly Maggie fault, but it was known that there was a threat and the fact that the invasion happened shows that not enough was done to prevent it. In hindsight it could be the case that the pre conflict defence cuts resulted in far greater costs down the road.
Cabinet papers released several years ago actually showed that the LNP government had decided not to replace Melbourne once the Invincible offer was withdrawn but decided not to announce this prior to the upcoming election. There were a number of serious options to replace the Invincible option that were given no serious consideration because a number of, predominantly economic, factors had changed and the project was considered unaffordable.
Ironically the Type 21 was planned with Seawolf and as a fast Sloop, i.e. small destroyer capable of air, ASW and anti-surface operations, rather than a single role frigate. The unbuilt batch II was a very impressive design.
We wouldn't have been able to afford the Melbourne if it wasn't for Britain holding a fire sale after WW2.
Australia picked up the Melbourne and Sydney, for the combined cost of AU£2.75 million. I did the math and that is the equivalent of $120 million in 2018 dollars.
Thirty years later and it almost got the Invincible for £175 million.
What are the odds that it could end up with the HMS Elizabeth one day?
t68
Well-Known Member
We wouldn't have been able to afford the Melbourne if it wasn't for Britain holding a fire sale after WW2.
Australia picked up the Melbourne and Sydney, for the combined cost of AU£2.75 million. I did the math and that is the equivalent of $120 million in 2018 dollars.
Thirty years later and it almost got the Invincible for £175 million.
What are the odds that it could end up with the HMS Elizabeth one day?
I think the odds we be good that one of the QEC will come on the market sooner rather than later, but the odds on the RAN picking her up would blow out a bit I'd imagine (50-1)
There were three Type 22 afloat, & fourth building, & two more on order when Maggie was elected. The first was commissioned the day after the election. All she did for the T22 was allow previous plans to continue - but only after two years. During those two years the RN was kept short of money for routine operations.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Probably could have kept the Vengeance in 1955 without much money changing hands too, the RN never re-commissioned her and she ended up going to Brazil. The large Crew, high running costs and the need for a major Refit probably precluded any chance of that happening.We wouldn't have been able to afford the Melbourne if it wasn't for Britain holding a fire sale after WW2.
Australia picked up the Melbourne and Sydney, for the combined cost of AU£2.75 million. I did the math and that is the equivalent of $120 million in 2018 dollars.
Thirty years later and it almost got the Invincible for £175 million.
What are the odds that it could end up with the HMS Elizabeth one day?
If Australia's relations with China continue to deteriorate then who knows, if one of the QECs becomes available then Australia may well be interested. Australia's previous flirtation with buying Aircraft Carriers was because a cheap carrier just happened to be available at just the right time.
History may well repeat.
t68
Well-Known Member
Well I don't see the UKDF having a massive influx of funds in the future, its either lose more capability or lose the one of the carriers. And without the capability (escorts)increase the RN cannot sustain a CBG 24/7 in a high treat environment something has to give. What more are you prepared to give up to have a carrier on "high availability" reduce the RM further sell off the Albion's?
Id also remind you I didn't bring up the AU carrier capability "routine", so placing my thoughts on the odds of another RN fire sale should remain in the RN discussion thread.
I agree that the RN needs both carrier for planning purposes but the RN needs both sound strategy and funding but you cant have one without the other.
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The UK has invested too much in this project to end up with just one carrier.
If the coin is too tight in the future, I could see one of the class placed into reserve, but not sold.
Looking at other country's operating with a single carrier such as France and Russia, you go from some capability to zero very quickly once your sole aircraft carrier option goes into refit.
Not a good look.
No option for government and a complete disruption to training and maintaining skills, not to mention morale.
The UK may actually find some extra cash for defence. Chest thumping Russia, Brexit , Trump and NATO; not to mention some hard reality, that you have to spend to get your defence aspirations.
Will wait and see.
Something to look out for.
I wonder what the Royal Navy will do to replace the existing Bay and Albion Class.
Could an LHD of two be on the horizon?
Thoughts
Regards S
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Giving up the nuclear deterrent option by cancelling the Dreadnought class would certainly free up lots of cash for the UK government but there is no guarantee this money would go towards properly funding the RN's other programs. The merits and politics of such a decision, I don't know.