The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Systems Adict]

A "useless" fact to add to your Questions Timmy C...

A one or two of the T-23's haven't had their winches fitted for the towed array.

Subsequently this rather large internal space, rather than being abandoned, has been turned into the ships Gym.


Systems Adict

 

[overlander]

but it,s true that the r.n. will be again cutted ?? only 2 months after the approval of the 2 new carriers it would be a non sense action, i have listened rumours that the 4 remaining type 22 will be withdrawal from service, so good ships out of the navy would be a very big mistake in my opinion and if finally only 6 type 45 will be buit what would be the strenght of the navy in 2020 only 19 escorts ??? terrible.

 

[overlander]

for me it,s not clear if the new carrriers will be exploited util the maximum potential, after seeing what is happening now with the invincibles, 1 withdrawal, 1 as lph and only 1 as a fixed wing carrier ???

 

[swerve]

for me it,s not clear if the new carrriers will be exploited util the maximum potential, after seeing what is happening now with the invincibles, 1 withdrawal, 1 as lph and only 1 as a fixed wing carrier ???

I think there aren't enough operational Harriers at the moment to fill two carriers, what with deployment to Afghanistan, Harriers withdrawn from service to be upgraded to GR9, etc.

 

[Rose Petal]

I agree officialy there seem to be 4 operational harrier squadrons if you look at MOD websites (RAF/RN). I dont think 801 NAS are operational and am sure they have been amalgamated with 800 NAS due to lack of QFI, I may be wrong but im sure i read this somewhere, I have tried to clarify this with the FIA but the MOD are taking forever to reply. Lack of airframes has meant the CVS of which only Illustrious is supposodley operating FW aircraft having to cross the pond and utilise USMC AV8s for her TAG. Im I also thinking that only No 4 Sqn RAF have carrier qualed this year and even that was only daytime. Any one out there got any answers?

 

[Galrahn]

I blogged on that last night.

There is only 1 active Harrier squadron that is trained to operate on the VSTOL carriers, and it is about to deploy to Afghanistan.

The Royal Navy is hard to look at these days, it almost makes a history buff like me cry.

More details to your answers expressed here.

 

[AegisFC]

A "useless" fact to add to your Questions Timmy C...
A one or two of the T-23's haven't had their winches fitted for the towed array.
Subsequently this rather large internal space, rather than being abandoned, has been turned into the ships Gym.
Systems Adict

Was that the case for the Portland or was theirs removed later? I took a tour of the ship back in 2003 and my guide told me the towed array was removed during a refit.

 

[Rose Petal]

Believe it has been a case for the 23s to use the TA space as a gyms when the first commisioned 2031Z was fitted to the bacth 2/3 22s. Since removal of the TA from the 22 it has been back fitted to the 23s in some cases, a fair enough move as the 23 is a more acousticly quiet ship however there were never enough sets to place on all the class of 16 hence some being fitted and others having a huge gym space. The problem the RN now has is a serious lack of escorts and being cut to the bone for maintenance, escorts and a/c whilst we are commited to Iraq/Afganhistan it is right that money be spent but its being done on the cheap and all three services are suffering but the navy is hemoraging to a point of non rectification and I for one cant see the light at the end of the tunnel. QE/POW and decent amphibious platforms will not make up for the lack of protection ie six T45 with PAMMS and no organic air.

 

[harryriedl]

but it,s true that the r.n. will be again cutted ?? only 2 months after the approval of the 2 new carriers it would be a non sense action, i have listened rumours that the 4 remaining type 22 will be withdrawal from service, so good ships out of the navy would be a very big mistake in my opinion and if finally only 6 type 45 will be buit what would be the strenght of the navy in 2020 only 19 escorts ??? terrible.

no no it from farcical sources its from Warships IFR which is famous for its bias which have been picked up by other papers

please why is their this constant rumor mongering about the RN being turned into a patrol boat navy

 

[Galrahn]

please why is their this constant rumor mongering about the RN being turned into a patrol boat navy

I made my case, honestly I think you are in denial.

The Royal Navy and MoD do not have a strategy, and the result is the aimless nonsense we continue to see every year.

The Royal Navy hasn't recieved a single new ship since 2003, and when the 6th Type 45 enters service in 2014, that will be 6 ships in 12 years in a fleet that doesn't even average 25 years of age.

Do the math harryried, your fleet is cruising at flank speed towards a dozen destroyers and frigates, and you can't figure out why others are stunned by this?

 

[harryriedl]

I made my case, honestly I think you are in denial.

The Royal Navy and MoD do not have a strategy, and the result is the aimless nonsense we continue to see every year.

The Royal Navy hasn't recieved a single new ship since 2003, and when the 6th Type 45 enters service in 2014, that will be 6 ships in 12 years in a fleet that doesn't even average 25 years of age.

Do the math harryried, your fleet is cruising at flank speed towards a dozen destroyers and frigates, and you can't figure out why others are stunned by this?

pray were do you get your info the CVF cost the 80 jsfs since i don't have membership to the USIN i can't check

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Do the math harryried, your fleet is cruising at flank speed towards a dozen destroyers and frigates, and you can't figure out why others are stunned by this?

There is no evidence to suggest the Royal Navy is going that way at all. Apart from rumour from a newspaper (the Telegraph) that has been predicting the mothballing/sale of 1/4 to 1/2 the escort fleet since last year, we have heard nothing concrete.

What we do know is that CVF has been ordered, Darings 7 & 8 may be ordered (still planned), we are likely to see movement on one new escort class next year and there has been a promise of a steady drum-beat of new major warships for many years to come.

 

[spsun100001]

I really hope the reports are wrong but the governments record of reducing the Navy is all too credible.

Hands up who thought the Telegraphs rumours a few years ago that we would sell off three Type 23's for next to nothing were scaremongering as well?

...or the reports that we would withdraw the Sea Harrier from service?

...or the reports that the SSN force would be reduced to eight?

...or the reports that the Type 45 would be reduced from 12 to 8?

...or the reports that the Type 45 woold become up to 8 instead of a firm commitment to 8?

...or the reports that we would 'mothball' a significant number of ships?

As long as we continue to operate well beyond our planning assumptions, squander our procurement money on hordes of un-needed tactical fighters for commercial reasons and increase defence spending by 1% above the general rate of RPI when the Treasury Select Committee says that defence RPI is actually nearer the 10% mark, then we are going to have to keep cutting. And cutting. And cutting.

I so hope I'm wrong but I tend to think it's a case of 20 ship Navy - here we come.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Hands up who thought the Telegraphs rumours a few years ago that we would sell off three Type 23's for next to nothing were scaremongering as well?

If a newspaper like the Telegraph has a big headline every time it gets wind of something regarding defence, of course it's going to be right some of the time. This is rather shown by the fact it has been predicting mothballing since last year - if its reports were accurate this would have happened by now.

Oh, and it's worth pointing out that having 8 Astutes might be better than the current submarines as they won't be out of service nearly as much due to re-fuelling.

 

[Systems Adict]

Was that the case for the Portland or was theirs removed later? I took a tour of the ship back in 2003 and my guide told me the towed array was removed during a refit.

A Refit ...?

She was only "delivered" by the shipbuilder in 1999, if my memory serves me well.

Certainly the TA isn't a bit of kit that's fitted during build, it's shoe-horned in later, after the ship has completed it's run ups & is declared operational.

As stated elsewhere in the comments between your quote & this reply, the TA's where a bit thin on the ground in numbers, hence the ability for certain ships to turn the space into a gym. This may have improved due to the fact of the RN selling off x2 Type-22's & x3 Type-23's over the last few years. Not being in the service, I can't comment what the state of play is today, but I'm sure that someone here may have further meat to add to the bones...

Systems Adict

 

[riksavage]

Personally my view is that these ‘leaks’ have been timed to coincide with pre-election jockeying for votes between the two major rivals - Labour and the Conservatives. One of the main electioneering focuses of the latter is the steady run-down of the UK‘s armed forces, such stories reinforce this perception, and will continue to appear as we run up to an expected November snap election. Remember the Telegraph leans to the right of British politics. Brown’s recent visit to Iraq to announce further UK troop reductions is Labour playing at the same game.

Time will only tell, however even the most ignorant of politicians recognizes that a Carrier needs planes and DDG escorts, so there has to be a line drawn in the sand somewhere!!!

I only hope the Conservatives get their act together and kick Labour firmly into touch.

 

[Galrahn]

pray were do you get your info the CVF cost the 80 jsfs since i don't have membership to the USIN i can't check

You don't need a membership to USNI to read the online content of proceedings, you simply have to sign up. That story is in their free content section. I think once you get exposed to the free stuff though, you'll find the subscription is worth the money.

As far as the pricing and JSF information. I am quoting Richard Beedall on his October 1 entry. He swings by and comments on my blog every now and then. He also seems to have good information and has honored my requests for more information in the past, so I consider him a credible source without asking lately.

Did you read the details of the Telegraph story? It didn't name which 5 warships, but it appears they are talking about the four Type 22s and one Type 23 (HMS Argyll).

There is no evidence to suggest the Royal Navy is going that way at all.

What are you talking about? Check your facts sir. Here is the list of frigates and destroyers per year received by the Royal Navy:

1998=0
1999=0
2000=1
2001=1
2002=1
2003=0
2004=0
2005=0
2006=0
2007=0
2008=0

The Royal Navy will receive 6 Type 45s by 2014. That is 9 total frigates and destroyers from 1998-2014, a 17 year period. That is an average rate of 1 frigate or destroyer every 2 years (+1) for ships with a 25 year life. That means 25/2 +1, or a Navy of 13 frigates and destroyers and I am assuming the +1!! From 2015-2025 you have to build an average of 1 frigate or destroyer every year for 11 straight years just to retain an average of 20 frigates and destroyers until 2025. The last time the Royal Navy built a frigate oir destroyer for 11 straight years was from 1987 - 1997.

DO THE MATH. This isn't rocket science, and btw, this assumes every Type 23 serves its full service life and is replaced on a 1-1 basis.

The two warships currently in discussion is the Future Surface Combatant and the UXV Combatant. Both will be expensive, and there is little chance that either will be built until after the Type 45s and CVFs. In 2015 the Royal Navy will have built 11 ships in the 17 years between 1998 - 2015, and 2 of those will be carriers. They are replacing 8 Type 42s, 3 Invincible class carriers, and 3 frigates. In other words, you would have built 11 ships to replace 14 by 2015, the year the first Type 22s retire (meaning the number will be higher than 14).

Now what if the Telegraph article is hinting the Type 22s are going away (+1 Type 23). In 2015 the Royal Navy will have 2 CVFs, 6 Type 45s, and 12 Type 23s, with the Type 23s starting to retire in 2019. That means the Future Surface Combatant replaces the Type 23s on a 1-1 basis, which isn't the current replacement model, just for the Royal Navy to retain 18 surface ships.

In other words, you have to hope the Type 22s make it until retirement in 2015, 2017, 2017, and 2018, plus hope the MoD builds 8 Type 45s, plus hope the MoD doesn't retire the HMS Argyll due for retirement in 2019, AND hope for a 1-1 replacement program of Future Surface Combatants just for the Royal Navy to retain 25 frigates and destroyers.

The odds of any of that happening is 50/50 at this point, the odds of all of it happening? Ya, no evidence at all.

At this point, I look at 20 as the high number for frigates and destroyers in the future Royal Navy, and 12 appears to be the low.

 

[Super Nimrod]

Galrahn, you forgot HMS Clyde delivered in 2006 & Commissioned in July this year, although not a Frigate its still a big Ocean capable vessel. I do agree with your sentiments though. I like your analysis piece - very well written

The reason for all this gloom and despondency is when we read things like the Telegraph story mentioned elsewhere which I haven't seen linked directly to this thread, so its below.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/30/navy130.xml

Although this story does have a few innacuracies the Telegraph does tend to generally carry MOD stories better than most of the other UK papers as said above, so there could be some truth. An alternative theory is that its someone in the Navy briefing the press and trying to position itself to survive the next budget discussions by suggesting some worse case scenarios.:duel

 

[neil]

The sad fact is most people do not care about defence matters.. and politicians know this full well.. thats why they place so much emphasis on education and health care spending.. (mostly with the sole purpose of attracting votes.. not because they care)

It appears to be a common trend amongst european countries these days to gut their armed forces.. the RN isn't alone in this..

As a non UK citizen I must say that it is however.. an absolute pity that a thoroughly professional force with one of the most distinguished histories in the world appears to be heading this way..

well researched galrahn..

 

[Tasman]

At this point, I look at 20 as the high number for frigates and destroyers in the future Royal Navy, and 12 appears to be the low.

It is only a short time ago that I was overjoyed at the go ahead with the CVF's. Now I am shuddering at what is happening (or more accurately not happening) re the acquisition of new frigates and destroyers. The figures you have produced both here and in your blogg are truly alarming.

Tas