The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Volkodav]

To be honest, what besides RN doctrine and the cost factors of development, is stopping the Merlin from being armed with a heavy AShM?

Sea Eagle was compatable with Indian Seakings and Exocet with Pumas and Cougars. Harpoon has not to my knowledge been fired from a helo but there is also Penguin.

 

[RobWilliams]

I was told the only reason Merlin doesn't come with a AShM is purely a financial decision, most likely brought about by the pairing of the Merlin to the Type 23 means that ASuW capability isn't particularly neccesary because of Harpoon.

IMO it looks as though the Type 45's will get the Lynx (for the Wildcat 28 airframes and the Type 23's (and the Type 26's) will get the Merlin HM2's (30 airframes)

 

[swerve]

The Marina Militare has Marte Mk 2/S on its EH101s. It's not a heavy missile in the class of Exocet or Harpoon, but it's over twice as heavy as Sea Skua.

 

[RobWilliams]

Exactly, something like nearly twice as long too. So Skua is definitely within space/weight limits, but like I said it's just a funding issue, something which could be argued to not be too neccesary if the pairings I suggested are used.

May not have the whizz-bangs that the Wildcat will have in terms of defeating a FAC swarm, but I vaguely recall reading somewhere that a RN frigate (can't remember the name) was being intercepted by FAC during Op Ellamy and they turned tail when the 4.5in opened up, didn't hit anything but the spouts it created probably put them off (I will endeavour to find a record of this however). We too often forget that the people who are in the FAC may not want to suicide attack us.

 

[Volkodav]

Exactly, something like nearly twice as long too. So Skua is definitely within space/weight limits, but like I said it's just a funding issue, something which could be argued to not be too neccesary if the pairings I suggested are used.

May not have the whizz-bangs that the Wildcat will have in terms of defeating a FAC swarm, but I vaguely recall reading somewhere that a RN frigate (can't remember the name) was being intercepted by FAC during Op Ellamy and they turned tail when the 4.5in opened up, didn't hit anything but the spouts it created probably put them off (I will endeavour to find a record of this however). We too often forget that the people who are in the FAC may not want to suicide attack us.

Do Seawolf, ASTOR or CAMMr have any anti surface capability? I know their war heads would make a mess of any ship or craft they hit but do their guidance systems permit surface engagements?

 

[kev 99]

Exactly, something like nearly twice as long too. So Skua is definitely within space/weight limits, but like I said it's just a funding issue, something which could be argued to not be too neccesary if the pairings I suggested are used.

May not have the whizz-bangs that the Wildcat will have in terms of defeating a FAC swarm, but I vaguely recall reading somewhere that a RN frigate (can't remember the name) was being intercepted by FAC during Op Ellamy and they turned tail when the 4.5in opened up, didn't hit anything but the spouts it created probably put them off (I will endeavour to find a record of this however). We too often forget that the people who are in the FAC may not want to suicide attack us.

I'm pretty sure it was a T42, Edinburgh?

Do Seawolf, ASTOR or CAMMr have any anti surface capability? I know their war heads would make a mess of any ship or craft they hit but do their guidance systems permit surface engagements?

Seawolf and ASTER don't, I read somewhere that CAMM will have an anti surface capability but it was an old document and the capability might have been dropped.

 

[RobWilliams]

I'm pretty sure it was a T42, Edinburgh?

Ah right, cheers

Seawolf and ASTER don't, I read somewhere that CAMM will have an anti surface capability but it was an old document and the capability might have been dropped.

The author of UKAFC lays it out as MBDA saying the potential is there & the capability can be developed, but the MOD don't want to foot the bill to get it, which sounds about right.

I'm not sure if it's a particularly pressing capacity to pay for. I can think of a couple of things for the Type 26 i'd rather get the money used on.

 

[Volkodav]

Ah right, cheers




The author of UKAFC lays it out as MBDA saying the potential is there & the capability can be developed, but the MOD don't want to foot the bill to get it, which sounds about right.

I'm not sure if it's a particularly pressing capacity to pay for. I can think of a couple of things for the Type 26 i'd rather get the money used on.

I was actually thinking of the capability RAM provides, not ideal but with a flotilla of Boghammers heading at you the ability to splat a dozen or more of them in short order wouldn't go astray.

 

[RobWilliams]

Absolutely, I can see the benefits. Could be one of the things where it may be considered down the line when the economy + finances are in better shape.

I suspect it'll be viewed as; we've got the main gun + small arms bolted on which can deal with that sort of thing. The higher-ups might not be keen to be throwing up air-defence missiles to take out FAC's too.

But like I said, right now I don't think it's that much of a need. However this all really depends on the sort of costs involved to develop it, if it's relatively cheap then go for it. If not, then i'd rather plug in CEC thanlk you very much

 

[Volkodav]

I am curious, with Artisan being fitted to the Queen Elizabeths, Albions and Ocean, what are the chances these ships could be rapidly retro fitted with CAMM should the need arise?

 

[RobWilliams]

It'd be way easier than installing Sylver that's for sure because it's a cold launch system, don't expect to see it at all on Albion/Bulwark/Ocean that's for sure. The first 2 will probably get Phalanx 1b when Goalkeeper bows out in 2015.

Looking at NavyMatters, this design for the CVF (65000 tonnes 40 aircraft capacity, S1850/Artisan etc) says - under 'Armaments'

Provision for fitting of light calibre cannon, PDMS or CIWS;
EW and passive ("soft kill") countermeasures outfit such as SeaGnat DLH or Barricade.

Latest illustrations show:
3 x Raytheon Phalanx CIWS;
4 x MSI DS30B 30mm cannons

So it looks as though it's been considered at least in the early phases of the design, but i've not heard much about it at all recently so I expect it's going to be one of those things which could happen in the future, but not now.

How much would VL missiles challenge air ops? Can't help but think that launching CAMM would not be adviasable when aircraft are taking off/landing, but the French seem to do alright with Aster 15.

My understanding is that CAMM (being cold launch) is far less hassle to fit to ships, it's a relatively short missile too and the QEC most likely has buckets of room where it could be put. In the past Sea Dart was removed from the CVS to get the extra deck space, but in this case we've got supreme amounts of deck space so that shouldn't be an issue.

 

[1805]

It'd be way easier than installing Sylver that's for sure because it's a cold launch system, don't expect to see it at all on Albion/Bulwark/Ocean that's for sure. The first 2 will probably get Phalanx 1b when Goalkeeper bows out in 2015.

Looking at NavyMatters, this design for the CVF (65000 tonnes 40 aircraft capacity, S1850/Artisan etc) says - under 'Armaments'



So it looks as though it's been considered at least in the early phases of the design, but i've not heard much about it at all recently so I expect it's going to be one of those things which could happen in the future, but not now.

How much would VL missiles challenge air ops? Can't help but think that launching CAMM would not be adviasable when aircraft are taking off/landing, but the French seem to do alright with Aster 15.

My understanding is that CAMM (being cold launch) is far less hassle to fit to ships, it's a relatively short missile too and the QEC most likely has buckets of room where it could be put. In the past Sea Dart was removed from the CVS to get the extra deck space, but in this case we've got supreme amounts of deck space so that shouldn't be an issue.

If VL was an issue, there is planned a fixed launcher model for land use. I did wonder if this would be available for sea use on small craft (not for the RN but potentially export).

I still struggle with the lack of anti ship missile on Merlin, I think it is more important than fitting Harpoon to a ship. I do like a 2 x Wildcat fit though (2 x Merlin would be even better!).

 

[RobWilliams]

AFAIK while there were rumours for a pallatised FLAADS setup, now it's very different. Imagine how a MLRS sets up except the missile container is facing backwards when lowered. I've attached some pictures of it mounted on a HX60 truck. That being said, the actual 'packs' of missiles seem very compact.

In a RN context, the HX60 truck apparently weighs ~7 tonnes when empty. For a Chinook to be able to lift it ashore the whole CAMM setup + fuelled up etc would need to be < 3 tonnes. Otherwise it'd have to be brought ashore in a LCU Mk10. Losing the air portability of the Rapier system, but for a more combat effective and transportable system

 

[StobieWan]

It'd be way easier than installing Sylver that's for sure because it's a cold launch system, don't expect to see it at all on Albion/Bulwark/Ocean that's for sure. The first 2 will probably get Phalanx 1b when Goalkeeper bows out in 2015.

Looking at NavyMatters, this design for the CVF (65000 tonnes 40 aircraft capacity, S1850/Artisan etc) says - under 'Armaments'



So it looks as though it's been considered at least in the early phases of the design, but i've not heard much about it at all recently so I expect it's going to be one of those things which could happen in the future, but not now.

How much would VL missiles challenge air ops? Can't help but think that launching CAMM would not be adviasable when aircraft are taking off/landing, but the French seem to do alright with Aster 15.

My understanding is that CAMM (being cold launch) is far less hassle to fit to ships, it's a relatively short missile too and the QEC most likely has buckets of room where it could be put. In the past Sea Dart was removed from the CVS to get the extra deck space, but in this case we've got supreme amounts of deck space so that shouldn't be an issue.

Probably be straight forward to put a pair of box launchers at a level below the flight deck - not a big deal to worry about exhaust efflux as it's a gas piston (I don't think anything comes out the back at all ? )

Given Artisan will be present and the CMS will likely be derivative of the system used in Type 26, it would be relatively easy. There'd be a few boxes to tick, but I bet you one decent international kerfuffle and it'd get stuffed in there in a few days.

 

[RobWilliams]

Yeah that's what I thought, shouldn't be anything too tricky but it's just getting the finances and the will to do it.

Personally I'd stick them in somewhere ASAP. As these will be our capital ships any sort of cost cutting in terms of self defence would IMO be criminal, I mean I get that the whole idea is that if an aircraft gets close enough to let off an AShM then things aren't going to plan but I don't think we could go wrong by installing CAMM.

 

[1805]

AFAIK while there were rumours for a pallatised FLAADS setup, now it's very different. Imagine how a MLRS sets up except the missile container is facing backwards when lowered. I've attached some pictures of it mounted on a HX60 truck. That being said, the actual 'packs' of missiles seem very compact.

In a RN context, the HX60 truck apparently weighs ~7 tonnes when empty. For a Chinook to be able to lift it ashore the whole CAMM setup + fuelled up etc would need to be < 3 tonnes. Otherwise it'd have to be brought ashore in a LCU Mk10. Losing the air portability of the Rapier system, but for a more combat effective and transportable system

Good photos, looks like 12 rounds.

 

[RobWilliams]

Moved FLAADS(L) over to the British Army thread

Does anyone have any idea when HMS Iron Duke is due to finish her refit? I'm keen to see how Artisan performs.

EDIT: Heh, didn't know Artisan was an acronym, apparently ARTISAN = Advanced Radar Target Indication Situational Awareness and Navigation

 

[swerve]

Do Seawolf, ASTOR or CAMM have any anti surface capability?

ASTOR
Aster

So so, ASTOR doesn't have any anti surface capability. Nor does it have any anti aircraft ability - but Aster does.

 

[Volkodav]

ASTOR
Aster

So so, ASTOR doesn't have any anti surface capability. Nor does it have any anti aircraft ability - but Aster does.

22 Hours Ago 10:38 PM kev99

Seawolf and ASTER don't, I read somewhere that CAMM will have an anti surface capability but it was an old document and the capability might have been dropped.

Correction only 22 hours behind, keep up the good work

 

[RobWilliams]

I'm gunna preface this with it's from the Daily Express, there's some iffy reporting in here but if the general picture is correct then it's not good.

Navy sub's radiation leak scare | UK | News | Daily Express

BRITAIN’S nuclear fleet has *suffered a setback after a sub*marine was docked for *emergency repairs following a *radiation leak.

HMS Tireless could be in dry dock for up to 10 months.

This has reduced our hunter-killer fleet to five subs instead of the recommended seven plus a spare needed to carry out vital duties, including protecting the UK’s Trident missile-carrying Vanguard submarines.

Of those five, HMS Astute, a new £1.2billion attack sub, is not fully operational and at least one other is undergoing maintenance.

Tireless, a 4,800-ton Trafalgar class submarine, was taking part in a training exercise for new officers off the west of Scotland 10 days ago when the leak was detected.

Navy chiefs ordered it back to the Royal Naval submarine base at Faslane on the Clyde.

Last week it arrived for repairs at the dry dock in Devonport Naval Base, *Plymouth. The incident comes just weeks after the ballistic nuclear-*powered sub*marine HMS Vigilant was stranded in the US after its *rudder broke during a deployment after a £350million mid-life refit.

Launched in 1984 “HMS Tired”, as she has been dubbed, was due to be decommissioned from the fleet this year but her service was extended for another four years due to the delay in the rollout of the new Astute class submarines.

Andy Smith, of the UK National Defence Association, said: “This illustrates the folly of trying to have defence on the cheap.”

A Royal Navy spokesman said: “HMS Tireless returned to Devonport Naval Base last week for repair following a small coolant leak that was contained within the sealed reactor compartment. There is no risk to the public, the *environment or the crew.”

So right now our current active SSN fleet consists of HMS Talent, HMS Trenchant & HMS Triumph (Tireless out & Torbay in refit) . 3 T-boats, Astute will be down to become operational in a matter of weeks however.