The race is on- in Switzerland

[Falstaff]

It's a fine tradition in this forum to keep a close look at current fighter procurements- and here's another one.

On january 7nd the Swiss parliament finally approved money to evaluate a new fighter jet meant to replace their Tiger-fleet. Bids were requested from the "usual suspects" Boeing (F-18 E/F), Dassault (Rafale), Eurofighter and Saab (Gripen). In the second half of 2008 all contenders will be flight-tested by the Swiss Luftwaffe. A decision will be made in 2009 already, first sqadron is planned to be ready by 2014.
They are planning procurement of about 30 fighters for 1.4 billion € which includes additional PC-21s as well. So not too much money here... Officials say that they are looking for the best possible solution regarding that amount of money, so I guess it's up to the manufacturers what exactly is included in the offered package.
Could be that the Gripen will be a strong contender here finally given the financial restrictions...

 

[SlyDog]

Well, I think Gripen have a good chance here. I think Gripen is a good replacement for theirs F-5 , I dont know the prices at all contenders, but gripen should be among the "cheaper" alternatives. The engines in Gripen might have some commonality with theirs F/A-18 Hornet, which should be an advantage.

 

[zeven]

i think Gripen would be the perfekt aircraft for them.

not only because of the price tag, and their small country, but they´re truely a neutral country and will not be involved in any war soon..

so why not keep the expensives as low as possible.

or i might be wrong..

 

[gvg]

Let's start with saying that I've always liked the Gripen.
Before reading the article I mention below, I came to the conclusion that if the Swiss want to buy 30 fighters, the only choice would be the Gripen. And that's only purchasing prices. From what I understand the Gripen will also be the cheapest when looking at operating costs.

Defenseindustrydaily has a nice article about it (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/switzerland-replacing-its-f-5s-04624/#more I can't post links yet). It states that if you can spend €1.4bn you can get:
* Eurofighter 10-12. Over-budget overkill.
* Rafale maybe 20-24. Current american weapons of the Swiss can give an integration problem.
* F/A-18 E/F 15-18. Commonality with current F-18's of the Swiss under 50%. Opposition to buying American. Concerns if they fit in Swiss (mountain carved) shelters.
* Gripen 30-34. Engine closely related to current F-18. LITENING integrated. Great offsets. Sweden also a neutral country.

Conclusion: Gripen most likely.

After reading above article I think EADS doens't even have to try to get this deal, and I'm inclined to say that about Boeing as well.

 

[Magoo]

The Swiss first need to decide whether they're A) - buying 22 jets for a new capability, or B) - buying 33 jets to replace the F-5E/Fs.

If the latter, then the Gripen is the ideal choice. The Super Hornet, Rafale and Eurofighter are twice or more the size and plenty more capable.

If the former, the Super Hornet has clear operational benefits in the DNA it shares with the Swiss F-18C/Ds (which are being upgraded to a standard similar to Australia's, albeit without an 'official' offensive A2G capability), while the Euro or Rafale would please Switzerland's neighbours politically...then there'll probably be a referendum on the issue too!

Should be an interesting competition.

Magoo

 

[Alpha Epsilon]

* Eurofighter 10-12. Over-budget overkill.
* Rafale maybe 20-24. Current american weapons of the Swiss can give an integration problem.

Only in Dassault's dreams is Eurofighter twice as expensive as Rafale.

 

[Gladius]

...

* Eurofighter 10-12. Over-budget overkill.
* Rafale maybe 20-24. Current american weapons of the Swiss can give an integration problem.

...

The Rafale and the Eurofighter... both are a budgetary overkill for the tender.

Umm, IIRC the last recognized offer (by French and not-French sources) with money figures over the table involving Rafales, was the Moroccan proposal: 2,3 Billion € for 18 Rafales and only after the USA boys offered a sweet deal of F-16C/D, they low that to 2 Billion for 24 Rafales (Link).
So... nothing about "* Rafale maybe 20-24"... Maybe 12 or 16 if Dassault is quite desperate for a first export order to push his birds to the Swiss tender with the smallest profit possible.

Anyway 20-24 Rafales would be too far of the budget announced in the Swiss tender: 1,4 Billion €. Especially if we recall the problem of logistics that the Rafale supposes because there would be to add the cost of integration of all american weaponry in use by the Luftwaffe at the time.

 

[Skyman]

If the Swedish offers the refurbished Gripen airframe, the overall price maybe even lower.

BTW, I ask on behalf of the person who do not know Swiss well that why its defense budget is so small? Is they think the status that they are completely safe make them need to spend just a little money on fighter jet?

 

[SlyDog]

skyman: C' mon, Swiss are surrounded by countrys which is well integrated in EU. How big is the threat really? Besides they also have 33 F/A-18C (according wikipedia)...and remember, the size of the swedish territory are est. 11 times bigger!

 

[Skyman]

skyman: C' mon, Swiss are surrounded by countrys which is well integrated in EU. How big is the threat really? Besides they also have 33 F/A-18C (according wikipedia)...and remember, the size of the swedish territory are est. 11 times bigger!

Yeah, I know that, But given the excellent Swiss economic condition. I don't understand why they should limit the budget for 30 aircrafts to 1.4 billion euro? It's cut many possible candidate like Typhoon and Rafale. I mean if they want to spend only 1.4 billion euro on fighter, should they reduce the number of required aircraft? They do not fight anyone and on one want to fight them.

 

[SlyDog]

Limited need of big range is factor I guess. There are a connection between need of range and size of aircraft. If the aircraft doesnt need to carry a lot of fuel and if the plane can carry enough amount of weapons, why choose a bigger fighter?

 

[zeven]

SKYMAN.

yoú´re talking about the Swiss excellent economy? true, they have an excellent economy, but, they are still a small country with a low BNP and that what counts. so they don´t have the money to operate expensive fighters, not to mention the high lifecycle cost, and like Slydog says: their territory are very small too, so gripen would be perfect for them. and the Swiss, is probably the most neutral country in the world, and will be the last country to ever be invaded by an foreign force, and the fact that they Got EU around them, who will not allow, a foreign airforce cross their airspace.

and gripen with meteor, HMD IRS-T and AESA, will be more than enough to secure their airsupiority the next 40 years

 

[Scorpion82]

AFAIK the 1.4 bln € deal is only an initial offer and it is not said if it covers fly-away costs only or total costs. That could mean that more aircraft are possible. Austria for example was supposed to pay 1.132 bln € for 18 tranche 2 Eurofighters before the contracts were changed.

 

[Skyman]

OK, Thank for clearification.

The time frame for the first operational sqn. is 2014. Is it possible for the Gripen-NG?

 

[SlyDog]

Scorpion82: Ok, that kan change things a bit. Other critical point. Will switzerland feel a need of a "twin engine aircraft"? But I think Gripen have a good chance here anyway.

 

[zeven]

Skyman,

2014 will not be a problem for Gripen NG, they could push it even earlier, depending which radar they want, the first AESA radar will be ready 2009, but i think it only have 1000 plots.

 

[Gladius]

AFAIK the 1.4 bln € deal is only an initial offer and it is not said if it covers fly-away costs only or total costs. That could mean that more aircraft are possible. Austria for example was supposed to pay 1.132 bln € for 18 tranche 2 Eurofighters before the contracts were changed.

No, IMHO this is not an "initial offer".

IIRC the intention is restrict the total cost of the Tiger Replacement Program (included the PC-21 training aircraft to train their pilots) to 2.2 Billion Swiss Francs aprox. (1,4 Billion €) to be able to afford it with the ordinary budget of the DDPS (Department of Defense, Civil Protection and Sport) for 2010.

When months ago the figures "aired" by some of the consulted contenders to the media were around 3-4 Billion Swiss Francs... And now in the official Press-Release of the Tender Announcement (Link - German), the DDPS low that to 2.2 Billion (costs of the PC-21 included), predict its funding by the "ordinary budget" of the DDPS for 2010, and said that the selection will be made after the evaluation process, seeking an optimum total package (so no "fly-away only" figures here) for that costs roof... I don't believe that they allow too much rise of the price tag for the entire programme. But obviously is only my opinion.

We will see that in the next months.

 

[Jon K]

From my viewpoint the proposed Swiss fighter purchase seems very odd. Switzerland has enough F-18's suitable for years to come. Then again, Switzerland lacks modern area air defense missiles (Patriot, Aster et al) which can be used against ballistic missiles and AEW planes suitable for early warning. Switzerland is a minuscule country, it can be even covered with very small amount of missiles.

 

[zeven]

which date, will the swizz decide??

what does the media say??

Jon K. their F-18 may be, good for now, but their new planes will not enter service for many years..

 

[kato]

From my viewpoint the proposed Swiss fighter purchase seems very odd. Switzerland has enough F-18's suitable for years to come.

Switzerland has always run a lo-hi mix in aircraft, with one sort as pure fighters, the other as strike fighters.

(it used to be a three-way mix, with CAS aircraft also in the mix)