The differences between OZ commando and US Rangers?

[Aussie Digger]

I agree with the description of the US Ranger's being better trained grunts.
But is there a Australian SAS still? It seems that the US and Russia beleive that you can have thousands of "Special Forces" ( Spetsnaz and Rangers), but I do not believe you can.

Special forces and commando's are not grown, or hatched, they are a very select few that have demonstrated exceptional capabilities, just do not keep them on the shelf for too long!

There certainly is still an Australian SAS Regiment (known as SASR). One of the problems of our expanded special forces is that our regular army is extremely small, and thus possesses a limited pool of individuals, sufficiently capable of performing special forces duties.

The Government subsequently created a direct entry scheme for potential special forces, who are recruited basically directly into Aust special forces and don't have to serve with a line unit before trying out.

This has been beneficial for recruiting specwarries with backgrounds in policing, firefighting, atheletes etc, who may be interested in specwarries, but wouldn't necessarily be interested in "regular" army service...

I believe around 80 or 90 "civvies" have so far filled specwarrie spots within 4RAR, thanks to this new scheme...

 

[Pursuit Curve]

There certainly is still an Australian SAS Regiment (known as SASR). One of the problems of our expanded special forces is that our regular army is extremely small, and thus possesses a limited pool of individuals, sufficiently capable of performing special forces duties.

The Government subsequently created a direct entry scheme for potential special forces, who are recruited basically directly into Aust special forces and don't have to serve with a line unit before trying out.

This has been beneficial for recruiting specwarries with backgrounds in policing, firefighting, atheletes etc, who may be interested in specwarries, but wouldn't necessarily be interested in "regular" army service...

I believe around 80 or 90 "civvies" have so far filled specwarrie spots within 4RAR, thanks to this new scheme...

Aussie, thanks for that bit of information, i have a question for you,
Do you feel it is a prerequisite for special forces types to have previous military service, or is it far better to train the troops from the ground up in Special warfare?

 

[Aussie Digger]

That's an interesting question, Pursuit Curve. A good mate of mine is now in the Australian's Army's only reserve special forces unit, 1 Commando Regiment and we've discussed this type of thing before (me being an ex-regular and reserve soldier, just like him).

People in that unit are highly capable specwarries (though lacking in a few of the skills and capabilities of their regular counterparts as could be expcted) and haven't served a day of military service as a regular "conventional" soldier. They seem to get along just fine. Also the new recruits for 4RAR are coming in part from the direct entry scheme I mentioned before, and they also seem to be working out fine.

On the other hand, Australia's (and just about everyone elses) special forces success has been built by soldiers who have extensive military service in "conventional" units prior to performing special forces duties, so there doesn't seem too much wrong with that approach either...

The CO of SASR has also been quoted as saying SAS think that some aspects of conventional military training actually stifle a recruits abilities to "take on" the special forces attitude, ethos and actually affects the soldiers ability to think creatively in some situations, which is essential for the Special forces soldier. Hence SASR pushed strongly for the direct entry scheme...

As to my personal opinion? I think it very much depends on the individual, if he performs well on the selection course, during training and on ops, who cares where he comes from? Performance is key, if you ask me. Not backgrounds...

 

[lowfathotdog]

The marines are a unit dated back to their revolutionary time every country has that one or two special forces that only they have eg Australia has Commandoes and SOER ( Special operations engineering regiment.

 

[winnyfield]

Two things that US Rangers aren't tasked with:

1. Oz Commandos have hostage recovery duties and,
2. in Afghanistan, they have been tasked with training Afghan Army Kandak commandos. A job the US gives to Green Berets, MARSOC and sometimes SEALs

 

[KiwiRob]

The Government subsequently created a direct entry scheme for potential special forces, who are recruited basically directly into Aust special forces and don't have to serve with a line unit before trying out.

Slightly off topic but didn't the NZ govt also instigate direct entry to the NZ SAS?

 

[winnyfield]

Slightly off topic but didn't the NZ govt also instigate direct entry to the NZ SAS?

Yes.

Who dares, applies: SAS opens its ranks - National - NZ Herald News

Who dares, applies: SAS opens its ranks
By Derek Cheng
5:30 AM Wednesday Aug 10, 2011

The SAS is opening its doors to civilians who could, if made of the right stuff, be elite soldiers ready to serve in the most hostile hotspots in the world in as little as 18 months.

At present SAS prospects serve in the Defence Force for a few years before applying for the SAS, but a trial has been under way in the last two years allowing civilians to try out for the SAS.

Yesterday the Defence Force formally opened its doors to all comers - but it's not for wimps.

According to Prime Minister John Key, one of the training tests is to hike 200km in 60 hours with a 45kg pack.

"You've got to have mental toughness and physical strength. It's not for the faint-hearted or 50-year-olds like myself," Mr Key said.

Not only do SAS soldiers need to be supremely fit and have the endurance and stamina to match, but they also need to be intelligent, motivated, willing to learn and determined to serve.

Director of army recruiting Major Helen Horn said the drive was simply to have a greater pool or talent available to the SAS.

"This is not driven by any indication of a lack of capability or anything like that.

"It's about giving people the opportunity to identify what they want early on, and it potentially will increase the diversity of people applying.

"There is no intent at this point in time to increase the number [of SAS] overall."

Applicants will have to be genuinely motivated to join the army and have a second preference that they would pursue if they did not make the SAS cut, she said.

Those in the army can still apply for the SAS.

The new policy may also see more women apply, she said.

"We haven't had any women so far pass SAS selection. We're really keen to see women apply."

Applicants will have to pass many hurdles and demonstrate mental, physical and emotional toughness that would serve them well in places such as Kabul, Afghanistan, where 38 SAS soldiers are based and are regularly involved in shoot-outs.

If they make the later training stage they will learn navigation, weaponry, medical and specialist demolition skills.

"Only at the completion of the SAS cycle of training do they become a badged member of the SAS. The whole process would take at least 18 months," Major Horn said.

SAS soldiers can also undertake advanced training that includes parachuting, diving and boating, mountaineering, tracking and close quarter battle.

The first group of civilians to have this option will be those putting in applications up until early next month with the first SAS selection in January next year.

As far as I know, the US Army SF/Rangers and US Navy SEALs uses a direct entry-like model (i.e. you select an occupation upon enlistment - see other sites for more info).

 

[CB90]

Yes.

Who dares, applies: SAS opens its ranks - National - NZ Herald News


As far as I know, the US Army SF/Rangers and US Navy SEALs uses a direct entry-like model (i.e. you select an occupation upon enlistment - see other sites for more info).

SF - sort of, not really...their new direct entry model (18X MOS) is a relatively recent change to meet GWOT numbers needs.
Preference is in selecting those with previously demonstrated professional competence. For officers, there's no direct entry.

Rangers - Sort of. Ranger isn't an occupation specialty selected on enlistment...so they run a selection course as well. That said, many of the junior guys will have been pulled straight out of the infantry school graduation, but leadership (NCO/officer) is made up of selection course run on in service applicants.

SEALs - probably most heavily weighted to direct entry than the others as Fleet transfers are actually a minority of accessions.

 

[Cadredave]

To all, I apologize for getting "arced up" but waste of manpower (and therefore talent) is one of my pet peeves.

Don't worry wooki your not the only one some good blokes in NZ have been destroyed by a thruster as we call them.

CD

 

[STURM]

Apologies but since we're on the subject of Special Forces - BBC News - The US Navy Seal now living as a woman

I've reached a stage in life where very few things can actually shock or surprise me.

 

[Volkodav]

I understand completely, what you're saying Wookie. My last field exercise (Bush) was (for those who know their 2/14 LHR lore) the Chauvel Cup in 1998. I served under a particularly in-competent troop commander who drove us for nearly 3 days on roughly 45 minutes sleep in total.

The Troop Sgt, injured his back on day 2 and was medivac'd out. This didn't stop our wonderful LT however and he kept pushing us. He refused to listen to any of his other "Senior" ( in-service if not rank) NCO's (some including me who had relatively extensive ARA service) and as a result I discharged from ARES, almost immediately after this exercise finished. No matter what your experience level, if you've got a f*cked boss, you've got a f*cked job in the ADF...

As to 4 RAR, all I can say is that the current 4 RAR is a vastly different beast to that, which existed in 1997. 4 RAR (Cmdo) was initially staffed by the dregs of the other RAR Battalions , ie: those not considered fit to serve in, 1,2,3 or 5/7 RAR, the Army's "regular" Line battalions.

They were named Commando's LONG before there was anything "special" about them at all, and in fact in 2002/2003 (I can't remember exactly which, off hand) were completely re-roled as a light infantry battalion and saw service in East Timor.

Since then they've been manned exclusively as a specwarops unit and have received greatly increased funding (ie: additional resources and manning wise) and have become a dedicated specwarops unit.

They possess outstanding capabilities now, that are at LEAST a match for any other specwarries in the world...

I know this is a very old post but it sounds all to familiar. I and a number of other members went inactive, or left all together, after a brigade level ARES exercise in the late 90s for pretty much the same reason, an ambitious junior officer wanted to make a name for himself.

The pressure was on in general, training weekends started on Friday evenings and finishing late Sunday nights, little or no sleep, clapped out (to the point of dangerous) equipment, and then to cap it off a troop leader endangering and injuring his troops to make himself look good, that was the final straw. It worked for him though, he was promoted and went reg into two CAV where he could do over career soldiers instead of reservists.

The true irony is at this time where the ARES was looking to get blood from stone industrial relations changes were making it harder for any full time employed member to meet their reserve commitment. Employers refusing to give reservists time off and threatening their careers while their superior officers were accusing them of malingering if they didn't put in extra time over and above what their employers were obliged to allow. Then to cap it off actual training obligations were increased to in excess of what employers were obliged to accommodate.

The Peter Reith / Ian McLachlan snooker. When Timor was on I asked my employers if I could go full time in response to a communication from SCEMA (or what ever it was called) and was told my employment would be terminated and my LSL entitlements (I was just short of pro-rata) would be forfeit on the basis of abandonment of employment.

 

[ASSAIL]

When Timor was on I asked my employers if I could go full time in response to a communication from SCEMA (or what ever it was called) and was told my employment would be terminated and my LSL entitlements (I was just short of pro-rata) would be forfeit on the basis of abandonment of employment.

I had no idea that this type of crap was tolerated especially during an "emergency" such as ET.
Did you have any recourse against your employer? Did not the government mandate against loss of entitlements by reservists who had been called up and finally does this position hold today or has legislation been passed to prevent a re-occurrence?
Sorry to be ignorant on this but can you imagine that happening in the US?

 

[Volkodav]

I had no idea that this type of crap was tolerated especially during an "emergency" such as ET.
Did you have any recourse against your employer? Did not the government mandate against loss of entitlements by reservists who had been called up and finally does this position hold today or has legislation been passed to prevent a re-occurrence?
Sorry to be ignorant on this but can you imagine that happening in the US?

The government changed the rules following Timor when they found it was harder than they expected to call on reserves. The situation in the late 90s of the defence department at ministerial level demanding more for less and industrial relations doing the same thing at the same time forced many long term reserve members to choose between the ADF and their day jobs.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The government changed the rules following Timor when they found it was harder than they expected to call on reserves. The situation in the late 90s of the defence department at ministerial level demanding more for less and industrial relations doing the same thing at the same time forced many long term reserve members to choose between the ADF and their day jobs.

The Govt had to call a midnight session to change the constitution to allow the reserves to go off and be deployed offshore as well.

it was dire at the time

 

[t68]

The Govt had to call a midnight session to change the constitution to allow the reserves to go off and be deployed offshore as well.

it was dire at the time

I thought they changed that in 42 when the sent the CMF overseas?

 

[Volkodav]

I thought they changed that in 42 when the sent the CMF overseas?

42 was a full mobilisation and New Guinea was an Australian territory. It was changed during the 60s to permit conscripts to serve in Vietnam but even then they still had to volunteer for overseas service, even if it was more a case of choosing not to opt out.

What I am referring to is the protection of a reservists civilian employment in situations short of a formal call up of reserves, a very different thing to deploying conscripts overseas. It was not until Timor that the rules were changed to permit a reservist to volunteer for full time service without putting their day job at risk. Many employers saw reserve service as a waste of time and actually discriminated against reserve members, that is now illegal.