T-98 vs Arjun

[gf0012-aust]

dabrownguy,
<Type 98 is 10 tons lighter than Arjun and that means Type 98 has less armor>

Type 98's turret is half the size of Arjun.

<Arjun's range i believe is 4.6 km! i think thats twice as much as type 98's smooth bore gun>

Type 98's range is 8 km which is twice the range of Arjun.

<but on the battle field Arjun can penatrate any nato armor at 2km distance at a probabibilty of 100% meaning soviet/chinese/pakistabi armor will be dystroyed at 3 km(this is with AFSDS rounds)>

By the time Arjun gets in range, it's FCS will be messed up by Type 98's Active Defense, so Arjun won't even get a chance to fire.

<non the less type 98 is a great tank with many googies like gps>
<Type 96 will enter production because type 96 was not a good value for a dollar>

Type 98 didn't enter, because there is a newer version, maybe you should take a look at Type 98G.

<120 smooth bore rifles are the best turrets around and accurate! btw its easy to fit a tank with gps>

120 smooth bore rifles only proved superior against Iraqi tanks. The best Iraq have is T-72, which is a medium tank. Beside, the Iraqis didn't even try to resist. Iraqis probably broke or damaged the tank before going to battle.

Thats palpably incorrect, there were some Iraqi armoured units that fought very very well. They were beaten not only by superior equipment, but also by tactics. You can read Clausewitz, Guderian, Sukhov, Gorshkov, Schwarzkopff and Sun Tsu as much as you like, at the end of the day it is training that will decide a lot of battlefield outcomes.

To train for war, you have to also know what war is like, be in it. Battlefield experience gained even 30 years ago will not be sufficient against modern combined arms and technology.

Oversimplifying things doesn't make them so.

 

[dabrownguy]

:cop

 

[gf0012-aust]

NEW DELHI --- The first T-90S tank “Bhishma†will roll out of the assembly line in the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi, Tamil Nadu tomorrow.

The Minister of State for Defence Production and Supplies Shri O Rajagopal will hand over the first tank to the Chief of the Army Staff Gen NC Vij.

Bhishma is a highly versatile and state-of-the-art battle tank, being assembled at the HVF, to meet the needs of the Indian Army in the coming decades. The important features of the new battle tank are its mobility, lethal firepower, surprise-hit at first sight and self-protection. An upgraded 1000 horsepower engine for enhanced mobility, ballistic computers for sight and accuracy and capability to fire all types of ammunitions including guided missiles make the Bhishma among the best in the world.

The main gun is upgraded and has excellent field maintainability. Similarly, the night vision device and thermal imaging system fitted on the Bhishma tank are the latest in the world. Superior armor protection with the explosive reactor armor panel and nuclear, biological and chemical weapons including the most modern communication system further enhance the capabilities of the tank.

At present there are about eighty T-90S tanks in the assembly line in semi-knocked down condition, which will be put together under technical guidance of Russian collaborators. Later on, in a year or so, about one hundred T-90S tanks in completely knocked down condition will be assembled at Avadi. The indigenous production of the tank will start in about three years time.

I'd say that in real terms, the Arjun is doomed. If this tank fills an operational requirement then the GAO equivalent will ensure that future funds for Arjun are killed and invested into a known stable system

 

[dabrownguy]

Dude never trust the Indian media, their evil! They love to critics. Arjuns one of the best tanks. I have a link here that says Arjun has GPS as does the Tank Ex.

Tank EX: DRDO new tank

Nitin Venkatesh







Tank-Ex is a significant development and is the second attempt (after the successful Combat Improved Ajeya /upgraded T-72M1)by the Arjun MBT developers to harness its technology spin-offs. The Tank Ex appears to be an ideal solution for upgrading the Indian Army's vast and aging T-72M1 fleet. Having undergone six months of trials in Rajasthan till now, it will presumably need many more to be fine tuned per Army requirements. However, it must be noted that the two crucial "parts" of the Tank Ex - namely the Arjun turret with its weapon system and the T-72M1 (Ajeya) platform/chassis are well tested and already certified by the Army.

General details:

Crew: 4 - commander, gunner, loader and driver.

Combat weight: The Tank -Ex at 47 tons is heavier than the T-72M1 (41 tons) and much lighter than the Arjun MBT, which tips the scales at 58.5 tons.

Power plant:The Tank-Ex has a 1000 hp power plant (as on the Combat Improved Ajeya) giving a power to weight ratio of 21 hp/ton for a weight of 47 tons. This represents an improvement over the T-72M1's 20 hp/ton with a weight of 41 tons and an 780 hp power plant.

Ground pressure: 0.94 Kgf/cm Square, marginally higher than the T-72M1's 0.90 Kgf/cm square.

Suspension: Torsion bar with hydrostruts; also an improvement over the T-72M1 torsion bar system.

Dimensions: The usage of the T-72M1 chassis gives the Tank Ex a lower silhouette than the Arjun MBT, which stands tall at 3.03 meters (over AD gun mount).

Length (gun forward): 9.19metres

Width(over tracks): 3.37metres

Height(over AD gun mount): 2.93metres

Ground clearance: 0.47metres

Armament: The Tank Ex utilizes the Arjun MBT's 120mm rifled gun firing unitary APFSDS and HESH semi combustible cartridge case ammunition. A total of 32 rounds are carried as compared to 39 in the Arjun and 45 two piece ones in the T-72.The Arjun's armament system is the most powerful one available to Indian developers today. The choice of calibre, weapon design and ammunition make it superior to the in-service 125mm 2A46 guns on the T-72M1. The Tank Ex retains the Arjun's third generation director type integrated FCS (Fire Control System) including a sophisticated digital ballistic computer. It may be noted that the Arjun FCS is an updated one(with digital components replacing the original analogue ones) as compared to the original, which faced numerous technical problems. Firepower trials validated the efficacy of the updated Arjun FCS and led to its recent acceptance by the Army. Capable of firing on the move, the Tank Ex also is fully "night ready" with the gunner having a thermal imager integrated with his main sight. A standby articulated sight is provided as backup for the main sight. The tank commander (as in the Arjun MBT) has his own fully stabilized sight with relevant controls for surveillance, target acquisition and engagement, giving excellent hunter-killer ability. The gun control system is electro-hydraulic. Gun elevation/depression is +16.5 deg/-10 deg , better than the T-72M1's + 14 deg/-6 deg. As in the Arjun MBT and the T-72M1, a co-axial 7.62mm PKT machine gun and a 12.7mm NVST Heavy Machine gun(air defense) are standard. The tank also incorporates an Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) to operate the weapons systems in silent watch mode.

Navigational aids: A global positioning system is provided for accurate navigation. This is a feature common to both the Arjun MBT as well as the Combat Improved Ajeya .

Protection: The Tank Ex utilizes the state of the Art composite armor-"kanchan"-especially over its frontal arc(Turret as well as glacis) giving excellent protection against both Kinetic and Chemical rounds. The usage of the Arjun turret design indicates that the Tank-Ex may also have its "ready" ammunition stored in the bustle (as in the Arjun),separated from the crew and provided with blow off panels. This would be a significant protective feature in line with "western" design practices. Kanchan is an extensively tested and successful armor, which is available for retrofit to other IFV programs. The Tank Ex also has fully integrated Nuclear Biological and Chemical (NBC) protection The usual turret mounted 81mm antithermal smoke grenade launchers are also standard on the Tank-Ex.

Performance and Obstacle Negotiation: The Tank Ex retains the T-72 attributes of speed and agility with a maximum speed of 60 km/hr (on road) and 40 km/hr (cross country).While the gradient climbing at 30 degrees it remains in line with all variants of the T-72 like the B(M). The Tank Ex is better at trench crossing.(2.6 metres as compared to the T-72M1's 2.28 meters).Vertical Obstacles 0.85 metres tall can be surmounted, same as the T-72M1.Shallow fording is quoted as 1.2 metres.


******************************************************
I think tank ex is the best solution to upgradeing the t-72. T-72 is now a T-90 comparision with the rifle.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE4-5/nitin.html
******************************************************

 

[yutong chen]

<Guy any tank can fire 8km but to make the hit affective is like at 4.6 and American M1A's had what 4.8 at max with 125 mm smooth bore gun with their armor penetrated ammo>

M1A have 120mm guns, and Type 98 have a range of 8km and still makes a effective hit. Do some more research. If you still don't know why. Just tell me.

<I doubt the Laser defence system could do something at 4.6 km, and don't you think the DRDO would think of counters, expecially mines since kashmere has a lot of them>

The laser defence is very different from what you think. It can even engage helicopters. Don't expect to hit Type 98 once and then you win. Type 98's armor is almost 4x the armor of T-72.

<So the Arjun outguns the Type-98>

Does Arjun have depleted uranium rounds? There is no arguement, everyones knows India can't stand a full scale invasion by the PLA, it doesn't even have ICBMs to make a threat.

 

[gf0012-aust]

1) India doesn't need ICBM's to hit China, all it needs are MRBM's which it currently has, In fact there is now considerable debate as to the fact that the Arjun 3 should be classified as an ICBM as it has the range clearly to hit China in a number of places.

2) Its not the thickness of the armour (how many time do people have to say this???) It is the type of armour that counts. BTW try to understand the relationship between armour type, arnour thickness, barrel length, barrel type and round mix and then you'll start to look at the chinese tank with a bit more clarity.

Lasers? yes, you can have them on the platform, but it is highly debatable that you could use them for anything beyond blinding the pilot - which as you may not know would invoke a rather extreme response from the opfor. This has been discussed before in relation to russians laser shooting ASW planes about 20 years ago.

Why do you have this compunction to want to invade or attack India anyway??

as for the rest, whatever you say. You are starting to sound like some French weapons manufacturers I know, everything they do is the best in the world, the fact that France hasn't won a war since 1809 and surrendered within 40 days of commencement of their last major fracas seems to elude their sense of invincibility.

Don't dismiss the Iraqis as total incompetents, some of their units fought very well, and in actual fact Iraq has more actual tanking experience in 12 years than China has ever had - Tianamen Sq doesn't count....

Show me empirical data from a credible source such as Janes, Bakers etc.. and you'll have more credibility with me. Add up all the things that are on the tank, look at its physical dimensions, then convince me that the engine (which is how many KW's??) will support continuous engagement with all its principle weapons systems - eg main gun and laser etc... I do believe that the laser is part of a designator system and not a weapon that is sufficiently powerful to be used as a threatening continuous armament.

Am happy to be convinced. If you can do all of this technology within the confines of an old russian base model tank platform, then you should have landed a man on the moon by now.

It may be a good tank, but its no land battleship.

 

[elkaboingo]

The CITV(commander's independent thermal vision) sight is now a common feature on all types of new tanks.It's ceartian that the T-98 and Arjun MkII are equipped with this feature giving them a hunter killer capability. :roll

can they shoot while moving while the target is moving, which is also what i'm referring to. al khalid has this capability (or it was said).

 

[elkaboingo]

My friends the Arjun is a hybrid between western and soviet tanks, with western tech. Merkava mbt cost 2.6 million and dystroy dosions of soviet tanks! Arjun cost 6 million and with isreali help MK2 is better than type96! Type 98 is 10 tons lighter than Arjun and that means Type 98 has less armor. Accuracy and range can't be better because it had isreali help. Arjun's range i believe is 4.6 km! i think thats twice as much as type 98's smooth bore gun. non the less type 98 is a great tank with many googies like gps! but on the battle field Arjun can penatrate any nato armor at 2km distance at a probabibilty of 100% meaning soviet/chinese/pakistabi armor will be dystroyed at 3 km(this is with AFSDS rounds). gf0012 what you are talking about are the old problems back in 97-98 but Arjun MK2 is perfect! I don't know if this is true or not but I have read on a another forum that the chinese have regarded the type 98 as junk. Type 96 will enter production because type 96 was not a good value for a dollar. 120 smooth bore rifles are the best turrets around and accurate! btw its easy to fit a tank with gps, just like the palm pads.

please do some research before you say this. :idea2
arjun CANNOT compete with western tanks. neither can al khalid. its just a fact of life. leo or abrams or challengers would have a field day with these tanks (unless they were fighting in india or pakistan, which is a totally different thing ) and just because something costs more doesnt mean its better.

also the best way to defeat a western tank is hit it on top. thats not capable from another tank. you can only do that with ATGM or MLRS.

 

[gf0012-aust]

also the best way to defeat a western tank is hit it on top. thats not capable from another tank. you can only do that with ATGM or MLRS.

the russians "eliminated" a chechyan rebel using a Tochka battlefield rocket. 10kms and you don't even get to hear it before you disappear

personally, for standoff, I'd go for the MLRS solution... now a precision guided MLRS would be interesting...

 

[dabrownguy]

:cop

 

[gf0012-aust]

You guys think i'm idoit don't you? I know about DU rounds but in order to use that on Type 98 you need to up the Tanks ASS! Do know the difference in a rife and shotgun? rifle is the choics for range and higher pentration unless your a M1A mbt! Your gonna have to do better than that. What can Type 98 or Type 98G do that would make it better? Anyways off topic the best tanks in the world are 1)M1A abraham 2)Leapord 2 3) Challenger! And I believe a Arjun Mk 2 can be compared to Challenger. The Type 98G has some good defences but when a Tank is already aiming at you he'll fire his rounds at the Type 98 and than the Type 98 has to get closer to the Arjun!

was any of this meant for me?

 

[Aussie Digger]

Guided MLRS rounds DO exist - ATACMS.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Guided MLRS rounds DO exist - ATACMS.

yep, just realised I left a bit off, a MIRV capability to lob clusters..

that one was another little brain fart on my part....

 

[gf0012-aust]

You guys think i'm idoit don't you? I know about DU rounds but in order to use that on Type 98 you need to up the Tanks ASS! Do know the difference in a rife and shotgun? rifle is the choics for range and higher pentration unless your a M1A mbt! Your gonna have to do better than that. What can Type 98 or Type 98G do that would make it better? Anyways off topic the best tanks in the world are 1)M1A abraham 2)Leapord 2 3) Challenger! And I believe a Arjun Mk 2 can be compared to Challenger. The Type 98G has some good defences but when a Tank is already aiming at you he'll fire his rounds at the Type 98 and than the Type 98 has to get closer to the Arjun!

am not sure whether your comments were for me, but you also use rifled for longer range accuracy using HE shells. the Brits thus prefer using rifled because of the rounds they use.

smooth bore are easier to manufacture and have less wear and tear. depending on rounds used, you might have to replace a rifled barrel slightly more often than a smooth bore. no one has been able to find the happy metallurgical medium that slows down the wear rate on a rifled weapon. The chinese tried laminates but they failed miserably - hence the shift to smooth bore - their preference was rifled originally

 

[yutong chen]

gf0012,
Are you Indian?

 

[webmaster]

gf0012 is an Australian. :australia

 

[yutong chen]

Do you run a web page?

 

[The Watcher]

:?

 

[yutong chen]

I was asking WEBMASTER, WEBMASTER.

 

[webmaster]

Do you run a web page?

I'm not sure what you mean, but yes I do run a web page... maybe you have heard of defencetalk.com?