T-90 in Comparison to Western Armour
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FutureTank
Banned Member
Are you guys still at it!!!
The T-90M does not exist yet in Russia.
The confusion started with the first sale of T-90 to India which were reported as T-90M (standard designation for exported tanks of any type) because of the modifications performed on the basic model as requested by Indians. It simply designates an export version for the particular client.
It is the incorrect reference to the T-90C first shown in 2000.
Its turret is welded and not cast.
Happy belated tanker's day!
Cheers
Greg
The T-90M does not exist yet in Russia.
The confusion started with the first sale of T-90 to India which were reported as T-90M (standard designation for exported tanks of any type) because of the modifications performed on the basic model as requested by Indians. It simply designates an export version for the particular client.
It is the incorrect reference to the T-90C first shown in 2000.
Its turret is welded and not cast.
Happy belated tanker's day!
Cheers
Greg
Are these improvements part of the welded construction of the turret, also if I may ask, isn`t a small portion of the T-90M turret cast.
PS: nice poster - I wish my country would have a national Tankman day.
Hi Greg
I thought the T-90S and T-90C were the ones up for export, the T-90M came out around that same time frame 1999, the M version is for Russia only, this has the same all welded turret configuration as the T-90S but I would assume a better armor package over the export version. Correct?
Correct - but the T-90M is the welded turret copy of the Indian T-90S, are the Russians producing them or are they still sticking to the T-90A.
FutureTank
Banned Member
T-90 — Original production model (there is no A used)Hi Greg
I thought the T-90S and T-90C were the ones up for export, the T-90M came out around that same time frame 1999, the M version is for Russia only, this has the same all welded turret configuration as the T-90S but I would assume a better armor package over the export version. Correct?
T-90S [in English] — Later production, with welded turret. Sometimes called T-90 Vladimir or T-90C (Russian Cyrillic letter es looks like a Latin c)
T-90S Bhishma — T-90S in Indian service, without Shtora active protection system
This has been discussed on other forums, and available even on Wikipedia where I copied and pasted it from so I didn't have to retype it.
The plate configuration is at present only speculative, as is the armour used and method of welding.
Cheers
Greg
FutureTank
Banned Member
M is only added to that equipment which is modernised because it stands for 'modernezatziya' or modernized.
There is a bit of confusion due to use of Cyrillic and Latin letters by different sources.
C is in fact the Latin C used for export since the third letter in the Russian alphabet is V which in Cyrillic is written B.
Therefore if there were four production versions of the T-90, they would be
T-90 (initial production)
T-90A (second production batch) in Latin script T-90A
T-90Б (third production batch) in Latin script T-90B
T-90B (fourth production batch) in Latin script T-90V
Yes, I am also confused by the T-80BV, and I think it may simply mean that the B or third production variant had been brought up to the V or fourth production variant engineering specs.
When the tank is improved, the designation changes to U from 'uluchshenniy'
When the tank is modernised (deep improvement) the designation has M added
When the tank is offered for export, it gets C which may stand for commercial although I have never seen this. The reason C is probably used is because in Russian commercial version would be 'komercheskiy variant', or KB, and this may cause confusion in Russian since K is already used for command versions since K stands for komandniy, and KSh komandno-shtabnoi.
When a tank undergoes a second modernisation, it receives numeral 1, and for the third modernisation numeral 2. Hence T-80UM2 means T-80 [A initial production batch] U improved, M modernised, 2 third time.
G (fourth letter in Cyrillic alphabet) is never used in tank designations.
D (5th letter) is used for diesel engined versions.
E (6th letter) is used for export stripped-down versions.
Yo, Zh, Z, I, Iy are not used, or I have never seen them used.
L was used I think before WW2 and stood for light 'legkiy', but is not used now.
P was used for 'plavuyushiy' swimmer together with T as in PT-76
Cyrillic C (latin S) is used for 'samohodnaya' or self-propelled as in ASU-85, in which case the A stands for 'aviadesantnaya' or air-dropable.
F (22nd letter int he Cyrillic alphabet) is used for versions adopted for naval service use and stands for 'flotski' or fleet because M is already used as described above so can't be used to mean 'morskoi' (literally 'sea') although naval infantry is morskaya pehota (sea infantry) and not flotskaya pehota (fleet infantry).
Sh stands for 'shtabnaya' or staff, adn in case of tanks comes with a very large deployable tactical receiver mast of some 5-7m in height.
Cyrillic Э for which there is no good latin equivalent stands for 'evakuzionniy' or evacuation vehicle, and can be used in designation where a tank chassis has been used to create a recovery vehicle.
I think that's about it...
Cheers
Greg
Indeed the right designation for the modernized T-90 is T-90A (for Russian Army) and T-90S - for export. The first batches of T-90's made for Russian Army before 2002 were with the cast turrets. It's including a small portion of T-90A's because exessive storage of cast turrets allready made by UVZ. The same - first Indian T-90S's came with cast turrets. We can see them on a lot of pics:
Then there was a big WWII staging in the Russian tank-building capital (N-Tagil) - of Prokhorovka tank battle near Kursk. The 'German' tanks were amazingPS: nice poster - I wish my country would have a national Tankman day.
:Thank you
So where does the confusion lay as far as western countries using the designation T-90M. As always good information.
They are pulling alot of these out of storage correct, what type of upgrades are they planning if any at all.
FutureTank
Banned Member
T-80s are not from storage. Most T-80 units that came out of Germany remained either in A or B readiness with some regiments transferred to training divisions (training base centres).
It is unlikely that the T-80s will receive significant upgrades since budget is mostly targeting procurement of T-90s to replace more T-72s in A/B units, and to upgrade T-90 early production batches.
The T-72s are being upgraded slowly in the B/G readiness units.
Cheers
Greg
They are also using the older T-64s for driving schools from what I was told. That is too bad for the T-80, I always preferred it over the T-72 series.
FutureTank
Banned Member
The base of the turret is cast, however the ballistic materials applied over the rest of the armour surface may give the impression that some parts of the vertical and horizontal panels are also cast. The ballistic 'skin' is molded to the welded plates and not cast, and is probably advanced titanium fiber weave molded in layers, and intended to provide additional protection against missiles, fragmentation trap to prevent damage to exposed systems on the turret or exposed personnel, and to conceal the nature and shape of the primary armour plating at the time of initial manufacturing. The arrangement of the plates for the C model can be seen here http://btvt.narod.ru/4/t-90_v_strou.htm
Cheers
Greg
With Russia going to a welded turret configuration, as they state it may be cheaper to manufacture but I think this gives them the room for more protection potential. Have you heard of any plans to possibly place the Relict armor package on the T-90, or will we have to waite until the T-95 is being produced.
FutureTank
Banned Member
Ah, if finally comes out! You own a T-72 and a T-80 ;-)
T-80 was a better tank but was 'Germanised' in that it was just too expensive to produce compared to the T-72. Keep in mind that T-72 is very upgradeable, and is an excellent tank, which, aside from service in Russia, is also far more suitable for export then the T-80. Think of the T-72as the T-55 replacement and the T-80 as the T-62 replacement. The T-90 is really seeking to replace both the T-72 and the T-80 so there are compromises.
Cheers
Greg
FutureTank
Banned Member
Nope, haven't heard anything about that.
Nah - most likely a biased opinion after getting on a ROK T-80U and getting on a former East German T-72 located at Fort Irwin, I will leave out the Iraqi T-72s. You could tell that the T-80 was the Russian flagship of tanks over the T-72. But what the T-72 was designed for, a tank that could be massed produced during a war time footing is enough to make you wonder on how many of them that Russia could pound out over western designed tanks.
I had someone tell me that you could not place Relik on the T-90 due to turret design configuration but I do not see what the difference that would make, if they are going to keep them for a couple of decades I would think that they would want to place their best armor package that is designed.
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