Sweden orders more Gripen fighters

[Dodger67]

Its a miracle that Saab as sold as many as they have relly.

It sells because it's a very good product in its niche - a lightweight swing-role fighter with up-to-date avionics (networked sensor sharing) and an unmatched TCO.

For mid-size countries that don't have (or want) strong ties to Washington or Moscow the Gripen makes a lot of sense compared to technologically inferior second-hand F-16/18s or MiG-29/Su27s.

 

[Wall83]

The Swedish armed forces wants atleast 60 new Gripen E. Prefery 80.
If the numers will go down to 60 they must buy more advanced anti-air land based systems to compensate.
Öppen utfrågning om nästa generation JAS Gripen - Öppen utfrågning torsdag 08 november 2012 - riksdagen.se

 

[STURM]

For mid-size countries that don't have (or want) strong ties to Washington or Moscow the Gripen makes a lot of sense compared to technologically inferior second-hand F-16/18s or MiG-29/Su27s.

If these 2nd hand Fulcrums and Flankers are upgraded with an AESA radar, glass cockpit, HUMS, a data link, receive a full air to ground capability and new engines with FADEC, can they, in your personal opinion, still be described as 'technologically inferior' ?

Last month's Air Forces Monthly mentions how SAAB disclosed that an international Gripen training centre would soon be operating in New Zealand but South Africa denied this. Do you know anything about this?

 

[Bonza]

If these 2nd hand Fulcrums and Flankers are upgraded with an AESA radar, glass cockpit, HUMS, a data link, receive a full air to ground capability and new engines with FADEC, can they, in your personal opinion, still be described as 'technologically inferior' ?

Last month's Air Forces Monthly mentions how SAAB disclosed that an international Gripen training centre would soon be operating in New Zealand but South Africa denied this. Do you know anything about this?

In New Zealand? I certainly haven't heard anything to that effect... I'd be pretty surprised if it were true. Seems an odd (and very out of the way) choice for a training centre.

 

[horge]

Let me guess... Overberg STFDC in Südafrika was confused with
Overberg FAOB in Zeeland, in turn confused with a Kiwi location?

 

[Ananda]

It sells because it's a very good product in its niche - a lightweight swing-role fighter with up-to-date avionics (networked sensor sharing) and an unmatched TCO.

For mid-size countries that don't have (or want) strong ties to Washington or Moscow the Gripen makes a lot of sense compared to technologically inferior second-hand F-16/18s or MiG-29/Su27s.

Any country that can have Gripen has to have good (at minimum) relationship with US. It has US engine for example. Grippen US content I believe is less than Super Tucano. But look how US can stop some Super Tucano deal to a country that US think is not desirable.

Besides the upgrade packages that the manufacturers of Viper, Hornet,Fulcrum, and Flanker now put in the market is not can be said inferior to Grippen C/D, and some of that already in the E/F teritory.

Grippen still has comfortable place in the Market. However the upgrade packages that US and Rusia manufacturers offered are in my opinion serious competitors for Grippen in the market.

 

[STURM]

In New Zealand? I certainly haven't heard anything to that effect... I'd be pretty surprised if it were true. Seems an odd (and very out of the way) choice for a training centre.

Sorry! I meant South Africa, I'm not sure how New Zealand ended up being typed instead.

 

[Dodger67]

The true story is a comedy of miscommunication and lost opportunities - the SANDF HQ being completely in the dark and clueless about discussions and plans happening at the TFDC base.

Read these three articles in sequence and take note of the publication dates:

The South African Air Force

The South African Air Force

The South African Air Force

The story seems to have either died or it's moved out of the public domain as nothing new has been heard since the third report.

 

[STURM]

Initially I was not not sure how accurate AFM got it as I found extremely puzzling that SAAB would announce the setting up of a Gripen school, only to have the SADF issue a firm denial shortly afterwards but the links you provided does indicate some 'confusion' or disagreement evident between both parties.

Do you have any idea what the 2 circular objects mounted on the nose of the A-109 are for?

 

[Dodger67]

Initially I was not not sure how accurate AFM got it as I found extremely puzzling that SAAB would announce the setting up of a Gripen school, only to have the SADF issue a firm denial shortly afterwards but the links you provided does indicate some 'confusion' or disagreement evident between both parties.

Do you have any idea what the 2 circular objects mounted on the nose of the A-109 are for?

It's a classic example of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing...

I recently asked a friend who works on SAAF helicopters the same question about the "nostrils" on the A109. The answer I got is that they are provision for a future upgrade where Missile Approach Warning Sensors are to be fitted.

 

[KiwiRob]

Norway did an open and transparent evaluation and clearly said the Gripen was far from what they asked.

Rubbish the Norwegians did an open and transparent evaluation, the Norwegian Airforce wanted the F-35 and nothing else was going to get the order. Now there are plenty news articles and public concern over the order and that nobody knows least of all the govt how much the order will cost.

 

[Wall83]

Rubbish the Norwegians did an open and transparent evaluation, the Norwegian Airforce wanted the F-35 and nothing else was going to get the order. Now there are plenty news articles and public concern over the order and that nobody knows least of all the govt how much the order will cost.

Yeah I think this deal will become reeelly expensive for the Norwegians.
In the end they probably could have had twice the numbers of fighters if they would have choosen Gripen.

 

[Wall83]

Today the swedish government announched that 60 Gripen E will be orderd from Saab and the first planes will start joining the Swedish Air force by 2018.

The Swedish armed forces has stated that 60 planes is the lowest number of fighters that will be needed to defend the country.

The deal could still be cancelled if Scwitzerland dont order thier Gripen E/Fs by 2014.

SVT avslöjar: Försvaret får köpa 60 nya JAS-plan - Nyheter | SVT.se

 

[StobieWan]

Yeah I think this deal will become reeelly expensive for the Norwegians.
In the end they probably could have had twice the numbers of fighters if they would have choosen Gripen.

Really? How, the Swiss are getting them at 100m swiss francs which is near enough $107million dollars at recent exchange rates. LRIP IV F35 A prices were $109 million USD plus engine. Given the rate at which LRIP prices are falling, that'd put F35A under Gripen prices fairly shortly, let alone "twice the price"


Add in the cost of a laser targeting pod which the F35A has as standard at say, $3m and I'm not seeing it.

 

[swerve]

Comparable prices? Be very, very careful when comparing prices of military equipment.

 

[AndiPandi]

Really? How, the Swiss are getting them at 100m swiss francs which is near enough $107million dollars at recent exchange rates. LRIP IV F35 A prices were $109 million USD plus engine. Given the rate at which LRIP prices are falling, that'd put F35A under Gripen prices fairly shortly, let alone "twice the price"


Add in the cost of a laser targeting pod which the F35A has as standard at say, $3m and I'm not seeing it.

But what is included in the price you have stated for the different aircrafts?

Take a look at paragraph 4.1 on page 7 of this document:
http://www.news.admin.ch/NSBSubscriber/message/attachments/28655.pdf

Meteor missiles seems to be included in the deal...

Without knowing what actually is included in the price you will most likely end up with an apples to oranges comparison...

 

[StobieWan]

Comparable prices? Be very, very careful when comparing prices of military equipment.

I am - as far as I can work out that as a unit price for a flying aircraft in both cases, *not* one arrived at by taking the purchase price for the support package and dividing that cost by the number of aircraft. .

Which is what what Canadian commentator when comparing the F35 to the Gripen t'other week, and I'm *still* ticked off. I know the LRIP prices for the F35 are solid as they're sums really paid for actual aircraft, if someone's got a different number for Gripen as a flyaway cost, I'll take a look at it - trick is of course, Gripen NG isn't in production so that number could move around.

I don't think it'll be moving downwards and I don't think Gripen is half the price of F35 on an apples to apples comparison.

Here's the DID article on the total deal, priced at 3.4bn CHF for the total package.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/switzerland-replacing-its-f-5s-04624/

 

[Wall83]

Well acourding to sources from the Swedish gouvernment the 60 Gripen E for the Swedish airforce will cost about 30 billion SEK, or 4,6 bilion US Dollars. 76,6 milion per plane.
The total cost for the planes with maintence cost and upgrades for 25 years will be ~90 bilions SEK, 13,8 bilion US Dollars.
There are also claimes that Sweden will pay 8-12% more then Switzerland will.

Nytt Jas-inköp får stöd av Socialdemokraterna - Ekot

 

[FirstSpear]

Gripen pretty unique

Well acourding to sources from the Swedish gouvernment the 60 Gripen E for the Swedish airforce will cost about 30 billion SEK, or 4,6 bilion US Dollars. 76,6 milion per plane.
The total cost for the planes with maintence cost and upgrades for 25 years will be ~90 bilions SEK, 13,8 bilion US Dollars.
There are also claimes that Sweden will pay 8-12% more then Switzerland will.

Nytt Jas-inköp får stöd av Socialdemokraterna - Ekot

Thank you Wall83 for this very interesting thread, which I just caught up on. I have read several times in press articles about the supposed outrage at the Swedes paying more for the Gripen E than the Swiss but if you think about it this is really no big surprise. France certainly subsidizes sales of its planes and so do Britain and the US though in the latter's case this is somehow more difficult to ascertain as so many platforms are delivered with 'export' technology that is not supposed to be a match for the equipment fielded in the US military.

I agree with the earlier point by several people that comparing pricing on two completely different platforms is hard. I know, I make the same mistake all the time.

I once got a detailed briefing on the Gripen's off airport capability and I dare say that short of the AV8B/C, it may be the only Western aircraft recently produced with such capabilities. Certainly, the VTOL JSF will NOT match this flexibility because of its inherent greater maintenance requirements.

Also, on two of my trips to Sweden years ago, I got a very close look at the 'alternate' locations for fielding SAAB fighters near highways and the setup was both simple/cheap and inspiringly flexible (we should learn from the latter). A very rugged fielding capability is often disregarded in the West as a Soviet-era Russian obsession but this assumes that we will never again face an organized, pervasive and competent military threat --likely to be correct in the short term but a very short-sighted view IMHO.

Lastly, an anecdote, I happened to be in Stockholm on a frequent visit when I was watching the pre-series Gripen do a demo and crash not very far from a bridge where I was standing with our team. The software was immediately a culprit from one person I was with but I don't recall the final report. What was the cause of the crash?

 

[swerve]

I am - as far as I can work out that as a unit price for a flying aircraft in both cases, *not* one arrived at by taking the purchase price for the support package and dividing that cost by the number of aircraft. .

Which is what what Canadian commentator when comparing the F35 to the Gripen t'other week, and I'm *still* ticked off. I know the LRIP prices for the F35 are solid as they're sums really paid for actual aircraft, if someone's got a different number for Gripen as a flyaway cost, I'll take a look at it - trick is of course, Gripen NG isn't in production so that number could move around.

I don't think it'll be moving downwards and I don't think Gripen is half the price of F35 on an apples to apples comparison.

Here's the DID article on the total deal, priced at 3.4bn CHF for the total package.

Switzerland Replacing Old F-5 Fighters with New Gripen

I can't see a reference to CHF 100 million per aircraft there. Where did you get it from? The original budget was 2.2 billion overall, i.e. about 100 million per aircraft, but (1) that wasn't for just the aircraft, & (2) the final price is 3.126 billion, or about CHF142 mn per aircraft for the whole contract. I've not found a breakdown of that, so can't tell how much is for the aircraft alone.