Sunburst: The Invincible?

[Distiller]

About that ablative cooling idea: I dont think that you could controll the process so that the shock cone geometry still works for the inlet. Whatever you do, the nose will be degraded to a blunted cone, but you need a pointy one for your inlet. Plus you wouldn't want hot gases and particles from your ablative material enter the missile.

And what for should RAM be good? A supersonic missile trails a ionic tail that is very visible on radar. So no use trying to get a low signature in the X and S bands. And a low signature in the Ku-band is also not very useful since a mach 2 missile is glowing in the IR spectrum like a flare.

And I bet being hit head-on by (multiple) projectiles alone (w/o pentration) transfers enough impuls so that the missile is simply catapulted out of the flight path; at least the sensors would be destroyed, since those can't be armored. I mean, the Bradley IFV needs more than 100mm of spaced compund armor to be protected against 14.5mm AP projectiles, so what do you think the armor against a 20mm AP projectile would look like? Even taking into account the flat angle the projectiles hit. Look at those videos where a CIWS destroys a Mk.8x bomb! There is no way you can armor a missile; it's not one of those 16in Mk8 projectiles.

 

[Wooki]

About that ablative cooling idea: I dont think that you could controll the process so that the shock cone geometry still works for the inlet. Whatever you do, the nose will be degraded to a blunted cone, but you need a pointy one for your inlet. Plus you wouldn't want hot gases and particles from your ablative material enter the missile.

And what for should RAM be good? (assuming you mean: "And what is RAM good for?") A supersonic missile trails a ionic tail that is very visible on radar. So no use trying to get a low signature in the X and S bands. And a low signature in the Ku-band is also not very useful since a mach 2 missile is glowing in the IR spectrum like a flare.

All very, very good points distiller

 

[Viktor]

@ Viktor: Do you have data about how maneuverable these missiles are? E.g. how many g's, turning radius at M2,9 etc. Thanks in advance, mate!

I have not seen data about its maneuverablity in any of files I have read. I guess it is closely guarded secret as well as type of maneuvre it can perform.
As I know these missiles ( on from Shipwreck ) peform manouevre when they detect threat (another missile heading its way) not sooner not later!


Grand Danois have you heard any information about some problems AEGIS system has when tracking missiles that go from subsonic to supersonic speeds in extremly short time. Found that information in our military magazine.

 

[Grand Danois]

Grand Danois have you heard any information about some problems AEGIS system has when tracking missiles that go from subsonic to supersonic speeds in extremly short time. Found that information in our military magazine.

I have read about some shortcomings of the SPY-1 - it is old technology on the hardware side after all. But haven't heard of this one.

Is it some sort of physical phenomena or is it tactical ie an attempt to get inside the decision loop of the combat system?

 

[gf0012-aust]

hwell Not sure I get your point

the iranians have already demonstrated creativity by testing Hawks as AGM's/AAM's on their Tomcats.

do a comparative dimensions analysis of a Hawk vs a Sunburn and you'll get an idea of what launch platforms are avail.....

 

[DarthAmerica]

the iranians have already demonstrated creativity by testing Hawks as AGM's/AAM's on their Tomcats.

do a comparative dimensions analysis of a Hawk vs a Sunburn and you'll get an idea of what launch platforms are avail.....

http://home19.inet.tele.dk/airwing/aircraft/moskit-su33.jpg

Not hard to imagine fitting one here...

http://www.jimbrooks.org/web/aviation/full/f1432.jpg

...Good thing that Coalition Navies have been preparing for this since the early days of the Cold War. Always helps to have an established doctrine against specific threats.

Also people have to consider the manner in which they are likely to be used. Unless Iran plans a preemptive strike. They have a window of roughly 1 to 2 hours to make a hail marry play with this system. Considering the chaos immediately following a strike against them, its hard to imagine Iran being able to execute an attack with the kind of coordination necessary to make an effective attack on an alerted military target protected by networked layered defenses.

DA

 

[Khairul Alam]

Somebody (Distiller) previously asked a very good question.
What launch platforms would the Iranians use to launch Sunburns ?
Too big for the Kilo SSKs or for the Combattante or Hegu FAC(M)s, and probably too big for the Vosper corvettes.
What Iranian jets could carry such a heavy weapon ?
Does the Iranian Navy have coastal units capable of launching Sunburn or are they still restricted to obsolete Silkworm and C802 ?

cheers

According to the JCSS, the Sunburns are deployed in coastal batteries (quantity=1). It also notes that they may actually be non-existent

 

[contedicavour]

According to the JCSS, the Sunburns are deployed in coastal batteries (quantity=1). It also notes that they may actually be non-existent

Ah-ha ok thanks !
That's the weakest deployment tool : air-launched or sub-launched are harder to destroy than a truck based coastal battery with accompanying trucks with radars. And all that in a desert type environment with no cover whatsoever...

cheers

 

[Khairul Alam]

Ah-ha ok thanks !
That's the weakest deployment tool : air-launched or sub-launched are harder to destroy than a truck based coastal battery with accompanying trucks with radars. And all that in a desert type environment with no cover whatsoever...

cheers

You are wrong there pal. Iran's coastal regions are not deserts but are mountainous. The Zagros mountain range runs along Iran's entire western frontier. These mountains are parallel ranges of folded mountains, which can provide good cover to the missile batteries.

 

[contedicavour]

You are wrong there pal. Iran's coastal regions are not deserts but are mountainous. The Zagros mountain range runs along Iran's entire western frontier. These mountains are parallel ranges of folded mountains, which can provide good cover to the missile batteries.

Ah ok my mistake then though how can the radars supporting the Sunburn function from behind a range of mountains ? Unless there's a satellite guiding the missile at the moment of the launch the enemy ship won't even be visible onscreen ?? :unknown

cheers

 

[Distiller]

Well, if somebody is reckless enough to try to break thru the Strait of Hormuz with a surface group, he could even be targeted visually I guess. The shipping lanes are very narrow and could easily be mined. No-go area. As well as the Gulf of Oman with its strong saltination lines and temperature layering and seasonal currents is probably a good hunting ground for SSKs.

And out in the Arabian Sea a surface group is not in real danger of a Sunburn.

 

[contedicavour]

Well, if somebody is reckless enough to try to break thru the Strait of Hormuz with a surface group, he could even be targeted visually I guess. The shipping lanes are very narrow and could easily be mined. No-go area. As well as the Gulf of Oman with its strong saltination lines and temperature layering and seasonal currents is probably a good hunting ground for SSKs.

And out in the Arabian Sea a surface group is not in real danger of a Sunburn.

Targeting a Sunburn visually ... probably feasible but it's very very crude ... and I'm not even sure that the missile's warhead would activate fast enough or that the missile would reach the adequate speed ... and worst of all, it would be like a dumb bomb with no guidance

cheers

 

[wormhole]

The missile is only part of the equation. Imaginative tactics also come into play. The Millennium Challenge 2002 war games demonstrated how innovation and initiative by the Red Force commander inflicted the worst "defeat" on the USN since Pearl Harbor. No doubt the lessons learned have been taken to heart.

 

[kev 99]

Iran has five of these missiles. They are nuclear tipped and could vaporize an aircraft carrier.

You actually think Russia sold Iran Nuclear weapons in contravention of all sorts of international treaties?

 

[StobieWan]

Iran has five of these missiles. They are nuclear tipped and could vaporize an aircraft carrier.

They'd be better of cutting the middle man out and firing 'em off at Tehran. Not that they have them mind...

Ian

 

[jskaffa]

I have read in several places that the Sunburst anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) of Russian origin is one of the most powerful of its kind. So powerful that it can even defeat the US Aegis system. It is also reported that Iran possesses 16 of these missiles.
Is the Sunburst really so capable? Can it spell the end of US naval supremacy?

From what I have heard around the ship, the sunburst missile will beat any search/track/fc radar we have, including Aegis.
[Mod edit: Thread closed. What is with this neco-posting in a 2006 thread?

By the way, competent answers, with insight have provided in this 10 page thread. You would know that if you had bothered to read the thread. Reading the thread is a requirement for posting in the thread. Warning issued for failure to read the thread you post in.]
The missile changes its trajectory every time our radars come up with a fire control solution, and our radars can't keep up with it. I'm no CIWS tech, but from what ive heard, even it has trouble tracking and shooting it down. This is all weekday ive heard because I'm no radar tech.
[Mod edit: We have members with naval backgrounds, who work on some of these systems; and there is no need for you to bore everyone with childish drivel. Learn to provide sources or stop posting. You will be banned, if you continue on this current posting trajectory, or fail to observe Forum Rules.]