Status of RAAF STOL transport
- Thread starter Todjaeger
- Start date
I'd also be interested in seeing a maintenance hours to flight hours ratio comparison - I'd lay money on the Chinook being more efficient there too.... A Chinook has more volume than a V-22, and can carry Humvee sized vehicles and almost twice as many armed troops as the V-22 (40 vs 24).Big-E said:
Also, a Chinook can be loaded on a C-17 for deployment, and the F model can be borken down and rebuilt in only a few hours. A V-22 would have to make its own way 'there' by island hopping or tanking, or be shipped.
Don't get me wrong - I like the V-22, but I think it's a niche capability with special forces and CSAR applications but cannot adequately replace the CH-53 and CH-47. Now, when the quad tiltrotor comes out, it'll be a whole new ball game!!!
Magoo
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Can it carry external loads at ALL though? I doubt it as I've seen a heap of photo's of it and have never seen it with an external load. If not, it won't be replacing the Chinook any time soon, particularly in Australia if we opt to upgrade the M198 and issue it to our Army "light Brigades"...Big-E said:
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #24
Classifications of STOL aircraft
In doing research on STOL aircraft, I noticed a few things that puzzled me.
Currently listed in the most recent Jane's Aircraft Recognition guide there are approximately 13 different types of STOL listed. Of those, only two seem to still be in production or have been produced recently. Also, the C-27J is listed as a Tactical transport and not an STOL aircraft, unlike say the DHC-4 Caribou or DHC-5 Buffalo.
Is there any kind of uniform description, or maximum takeoff length for an aircraft to be called STOL?
In doing research on STOL aircraft, I noticed a few things that puzzled me.
Currently listed in the most recent Jane's Aircraft Recognition guide there are approximately 13 different types of STOL listed. Of those, only two seem to still be in production or have been produced recently. Also, the C-27J is listed as a Tactical transport and not an STOL aircraft, unlike say the DHC-4 Caribou or DHC-5 Buffalo.
Is there any kind of uniform description, or maximum takeoff length for an aircraft to be called STOL?
The C-27J is far from being a replacement for the Caribou. The Caribou takes off and lands in less than half the distance and lands 50% slower.Todjaeger said:
Plus in soft wet area's up north or like PNG the Caribou can comfortably land in places where the C-27J could never even try and reach.
The C-27J is just a smaller version of the C-130 offering only fractional shorter runways.
I did more searching and money would definitely be better spent buying more C-130J's than C-27J's. The C-130J can land and takeoff on the same runway as a C-27J can, this is meant to be the main advantage of the C-27J. Cost isn't a big advantage as operating a two aircraft fleet will detract from the cheaper running costs of the C-27J.
Carrying the same payload as a C-27J and carrying enough fuel to reach the same range as the C-27J will takeoff and land in the same distance of a C-27J. So basically a C-130 with 50% payload and 70% fuel will operate on the same runways as a C-27J with 100% payload and 100% fuel, both with the same range.
The Caribou is a completely different class of aircraft. A C-27J with no cargo and with minimum fuel still requires a longer runway than a Caribou with full fuel and max payload.
No aircraft besides a helicopter or V-22 can provide this performance.
A couple more Chinooks and C-130J's will cover the gap well.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #26
Okay, followup question then. What's the take off and landing distance for a fully laden Caribou? And for different landing conditions like a paved surface, dirt strip and mud?rjmaz1 said:
In doing research on the An-72 Coaler, I came across references to a YC-14 STOL turbofan from Boeing. While not put into production it had originally been intended as a Hercules replacement. The program had been cancelled with two prototypes built, but it has been mentioned as possibly being resurrected for the US Army JCA program now. If the US adopts an aircraft with turbofans mounted high in the wings, might Australia become interested?
Funny you should mention the YC-14. The YC-15 is being used for the new Super-STOL aircraft.
Greater payload and range than a C-130 yet with landing capabilities of a tiny caribou :smokie
If the ATT reaches its goals, we could replace alot of our airlift fleet with it.
aeronautics.arc.nasa.gov/assets/pdf/dyn2-2.pdf
This is one of the big developments going on, as well as the Quad tilt rotar.
Greater payload and range than a C-130 yet with landing capabilities of a tiny caribou :smokie
If the ATT reaches its goals, we could replace alot of our airlift fleet with it.
aeronautics.arc.nasa.gov/assets/pdf/dyn2-2.pdf
This is one of the big developments going on, as well as the Quad tilt rotar.
How is it that no one can come up with something of a modern Caribou, which is a light transport which can carry a descent load and land on a small dirt strip. same as how no one can match the A-10 when it comes to ground attack at slow speed. Are all these companies such as boeing, Northrup and others just thinking to fast, and not realising what is needed is something slower, simpliar with less fuss, why does everything have to be so damn complicated...o yeah, more spare parts and maintanence means more $$$, how silly of me.
For its size the C-17 has a much smaller takeoff run than a Caribou.icelord said:
For example if you made a massive transport aircraft that was 200metres long it could not take off on a 200metre runway. Yet a Caribou can nearly takeoff on a 200metre runway as the runway is many times longer than its length/size.
A C-17 weights more than 15 times that of a Caribou and nearly 4 times its length. Yet the C-17 requires a 1000metre runway where as the Caribou requires a 250metre runway.
If they made a new Caribou class of aircraft using current STOL technology it would be able to take off and land on a soccer pitch less than half the length requires for the current Caribou. So we really have come a long way.
Today not many countries have the requirement for a caribou sized aircraft as its payload is too small. No one is willing to spend the money to bring the advanced STOL technology into a smaller transport that isn't as important as a 100+ tone aircraft.
But the problem remains, the great thing about the Caribou is had to have little maintanence required, and it doesn't run on jet fuel like most aircraft these days, it was part of its requirement, so that in extreme emergency, it can syphon off any vehicle fuel and parts, where as most today, especially a helo, require constant maintanence and repair(please note, i said it had to have, these days it needs regular checks due to its age)
Also, would not the Ospreys point be it needed the STOL part so it could land on small areas, while flying longer distances then a helo.
Also, would not the Ospreys point be it needed the STOL part so it could land on small areas, while flying longer distances then a helo.
contedicavour
New Member
The picture is amazing to the point that it almost seems a hoax ! The pilot must be a real ace to hover like that with the rear half landed and soldiers walking out as if they came out of a 747Aussie Digger said:
To match something that spectacular I must find a picture I have somewhere in the hard disk with the G-222 almost vertical during a Bourget airshow some years ago
cheers
But it is a hell of a lot cheaper and has a much much better reliability record at this point in time. The V-22 has been a pretty troubled project.Big-E said:
We could get both Chooks and 12 to 18 C.27J/C295s for the money you would spend on a V-22 unit.
On the matter of C27J versus Chinook it is worth remembering that one of the reasons behind the US Army's FCA programme is the experience of the ops. in Afghanistan. Afghanistan has shown that carrying out all the intratheater missions with the Chinhook resulted in excessive wear on machines and high expense for operation and mantainance.
This should come as no surprise.
We all love helicopters but it must be remembered that it is an expensive and inefficient machine. The governing principle should be that they must be used only where nothing else would do.
If Australia bases its decision on rational analysis the C27J would certainly make its way into service.
This should come as no surprise.
We all love helicopters but it must be remembered that it is an expensive and inefficient machine. The governing principle should be that they must be used only where nothing else would do.
If Australia bases its decision on rational analysis the C27J would certainly make its way into service.
Trackmaster
Member
A Reuters report yesterday on the US Army JCA program had an interesting throw-away line at the bottom of the page.
Alenia is negotiating to supply 14 C27J's to Australia along with 15 to Canada.
Alenia is negotiating to supply 14 C27J's to Australia along with 15 to Canada.
Trackmaster
Member
It's available on the first page of this site...under Defense News..."US Army plans to award cargo plane in early 2007"
US Army aims to award cargo plane in early 2007
Top US Army officials on Tuesday said they still hope to award a contract for a new light cargo aircraft early next year Read More...
US Army aims to award cargo plane in early 2007
Top US Army officials on Tuesday said they still hope to award a contract for a new light cargo aircraft early next year Read More...
Last edited by a moderator:
Italian Spartans lead the race to be Defence's heavy-lifters
Patrick Walters, National security editor
April 12, 2007
ITALY'S C-27J military transport plane is favoured to replace the air force's ageing DHC-4 Caribou aircraft in a contract worth up to $1 billion.
Defence sources say a decision to buy the twin-engine C-27J Spartan - built by Alenia Aeronautica in association with US defence giant Lockheed Martin - could come as early as mid-year with the aircraft expected to be delivered from 2010-11.
An initial order of 10-12 aircraft could be followed by more if the RAAF decides not to replace all of its larger C-130H model Hercules transports.
The C-27J is favoured over its Spanish rival, the C-295, because of its compatibility with the C-130 Hercules and the incoming C-17 transport aircraft - the RAAF's main heavy-airlift transport.
Defence sources said the C-27J would take the pressure off the RAAF's hard-pressed C-130 fleet, which has had heavy service in Iraq and Afghanistan in recent years, as well as the army's Chinook heavy-lift helicopters.
The army's two Chinook choppers have been withdrawn from Afghanistan for a lengthy overhaul, leaving Australia's task force in Oruzgan province without transport aircraft.
With the Caribou soon to be retired, the defence force is looking for a versatile aircraft able to land and take off on short, unsealed airstrips from the South Pacific to Afghanistan, but able to carry bigger loads far further than the Caribou.
The C-27J is considered the most advanced transport aircraft of its type in the world. The US army is tipped to select the plane for its own tactical transport needs next month.
The C-27J can carry up to 11.5 tonnes of cargo, including light trucks or armoured vehicles or artillery, and can vary its cargo floor height for larger loads.
It can carry up to 68 troops, or medivac up to 36 casualties with nursing staff and has a range of more than 4000 nautical miles with a six-tonne payload.
Seven years ago, defence decided not to proceed with a request for tender to supply up to 18 new aircraft, which pitted the C-27J against the C-295.
The result meant a further overhaul of the Caribou fleet, which is used for many resupply operations in Australia.
Defence sources say the new aircraft could be brought direct from Alenia or from the US Government. The Australian aircraft are expected to be fitted with the same communications and electronic warfare self-protection as the US aircraft.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21542588-5001561,00.html
Bout time something was done about the Caribou replacements, after going dark there is now a light. I have been told a spartan was down at Avalon, and from what many who were there have told me it looked pretty sweet, but has that problem of being flash compared to the back to basic workhorse the Caribou
Patrick Walters, National security editor
April 12, 2007
ITALY'S C-27J military transport plane is favoured to replace the air force's ageing DHC-4 Caribou aircraft in a contract worth up to $1 billion.
Defence sources say a decision to buy the twin-engine C-27J Spartan - built by Alenia Aeronautica in association with US defence giant Lockheed Martin - could come as early as mid-year with the aircraft expected to be delivered from 2010-11.
An initial order of 10-12 aircraft could be followed by more if the RAAF decides not to replace all of its larger C-130H model Hercules transports.
The C-27J is favoured over its Spanish rival, the C-295, because of its compatibility with the C-130 Hercules and the incoming C-17 transport aircraft - the RAAF's main heavy-airlift transport.
Defence sources said the C-27J would take the pressure off the RAAF's hard-pressed C-130 fleet, which has had heavy service in Iraq and Afghanistan in recent years, as well as the army's Chinook heavy-lift helicopters.
The army's two Chinook choppers have been withdrawn from Afghanistan for a lengthy overhaul, leaving Australia's task force in Oruzgan province without transport aircraft.
With the Caribou soon to be retired, the defence force is looking for a versatile aircraft able to land and take off on short, unsealed airstrips from the South Pacific to Afghanistan, but able to carry bigger loads far further than the Caribou.
The C-27J is considered the most advanced transport aircraft of its type in the world. The US army is tipped to select the plane for its own tactical transport needs next month.
The C-27J can carry up to 11.5 tonnes of cargo, including light trucks or armoured vehicles or artillery, and can vary its cargo floor height for larger loads.
It can carry up to 68 troops, or medivac up to 36 casualties with nursing staff and has a range of more than 4000 nautical miles with a six-tonne payload.
Seven years ago, defence decided not to proceed with a request for tender to supply up to 18 new aircraft, which pitted the C-27J against the C-295.
The result meant a further overhaul of the Caribou fleet, which is used for many resupply operations in Australia.
Defence sources say the new aircraft could be brought direct from Alenia or from the US Government. The Australian aircraft are expected to be fitted with the same communications and electronic warfare self-protection as the US aircraft.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21542588-5001561,00.html
Bout time something was done about the Caribou replacements, after going dark there is now a light. I have been told a spartan was down at Avalon, and from what many who were there have told me it looked pretty sweet, but has that problem of being flash compared to the back to basic workhorse the Caribou
IMO, purchase of the C27J would be a very logical decision. The Caribous have given excellent service but they have been hard worked and must be getting worn out. The Spartan looked good at Avalon, though I missed its flying display. I think they may need to be supplemented by additional CH47s to provide the battlefield support the army needs.
A coat of camouflage can fix the 'flash' look!
Cheers