Spruance DDG transfer to allied navies ?

[beleg]

Let me adress some points to the best of my knowledge..

Currently 4 of the 8 Turkish Mekos are VLS capable (2 havent got vls fitted) thus should get ESSM & half life modernisation to use this ability. Turkish OHPs are going thru an extensive electronical upgrade code named GENESIS (Ship Integrated Warfare) but there is no hardware change in the ship like in Oz OHPs. The ships will continiue to use SM1s.

I am not sure if AEGIS & SM-2 combo is released for Turkey, we are in a problematic neighborhood and Uncle Sam tries to watch the balance between Greece and Turkey. So unless Greece goes out and purchases FREMM i am not sure we will receive AAW capability via tried and trusted AEGIS&SM2 combo. Turkey had a project to procure an AAW frigate code named TF-2000 but it was cancelled due to such problems.

Currently Turkey is building a LCS like ship under projectcode MILGEM (National Ship) which will have mainly similar operational capabilities with LCS with a less sophisticated , thus cheaper to prucure, design and less operational costs. The same design might be used to build a Turkish frigate in the next decade so its also possibility that Turkey will NOT go for FREMM but build its own frigate. Currently Ukraine has shown interest in Milgem while its still being constructed and i am sure later on we can find countries that want to cooperate in the frigate solution.

If we return to the main topic Spruaces, I know that Taiwan was offered a 500mio$ per ship modernisation package and turned it down and got the KIDDs(?). Perhaps such a modernisation package might also be considered but imho Turkey will use the Spruances as is if they are ever received and spend its limited recources to increse the capabilities of current ships, procuring more subs with AIP and finally and the most expensive development of national ship designs..

 

[contedicavour]

To the best of my knowledge the Turkish MEKO (especially the first 4) are not of the same generation vs the Australian-built ones, so I'm not sure we can compare them so closely. I don't have my reference books with me right now, but I would be surprised ships with 20 years' difference were almost identical...

The Perrys without VLS for ESSM are obsolescent ships. It's not only the lack of Aegis that makes me say that : relying on a single launcher for all AAW and ASUW missile launches exposes the ship to a very high risk of being sunk by multiple aircraft or missile attack.

Since, as written by several of you, it is unlikely the US would supply Turkey with Aegis systems because of the delicate balance of forces with Greece, ... then the only valid AAW choice is the FREMM.

cheers

 

[beleg]

The last 4 Turkish Mekos (Track 2 - IIA/ 2 - IIB) are similar to Anzacs and the Greek Hydras having the MK41 VLS which can carry quad ESSM packs. Turkish ships have Sea Zenith CIWS which makes their look quite unique. However the first 4 ships are getting relatively old. They have NSSMS in octople launcher which is probably not worth to receive ESSMs in the future.


I basicly agree with what you say about OHPs. The navy is very happy with these ships but they are not upto the standards of modern warfare where the main threat is multiple nearsupersonic or even supersonic anti ship missiles. There is only one CIWS in the ship which is another problem.

Still the Turkish Navy is probably the strongest and the most modern navy in Eastern Med. Some of our neighbors ships dont even have CIWS.

FREMM is a very good multi-purpose- land attack solution on the paper but there are other political difficulties especially with France. If Greece really buys them (which probably they will since they are selling the Dutch Kortnaer class to Pakistan) Turkey maybe interested in buying new frigates before wating to develop its own multi purpose frigate.

AAW is another story. FREMM is not an AAW ship imo, having Aster 15/30s wont necessarily make a ship AAW. You need a complete suite dedicated for that mission as in AEGIS cruisers/destroyers.

I'd love to see Greece buying FREMMs thus USA will release AEGIS suite and SM2/ESSM and perhaps even a land attack missile combo for us.

 

[contedicavour]

The last 4 Turkish Mekos (Track 2 - IIA/ 2 - IIB) are similar to Anzacs and the Greek Hydras having the MK41 VLS which can carry quad ESSM packs. Turkish ships have Sea Zenith CIWS which makes their look quite unique. However the first 4 ships are getting relatively old. They have NSSMS in octople launcher which is probably not worth to receive ESSMs in the future.


I basicly agree with what you say about OHPs. The navy is very happy with these ships but they are not upto the standards of modern warfare where the main threat is multiple nearsupersonic or even supersonic anti ship missiles. There is only one CIWS in the ship which is another problem.

Still the Turkish Navy is probably the strongest and the most modern navy in Eastern Med. Some of our neighbors ships dont even have CIWS.

FREMM is a very good multi-purpose- land attack solution on the paper but there are other political difficulties especially with France. If Greece really buys them (which probably they will since they are selling the Dutch Kortnaer class to Pakistan) Turkey maybe interested in buying new frigates before wating to develop its own multi purpose frigate.

AAW is another story. FREMM is not an AAW ship imo, having Aster 15/30s wont necessarily make a ship AAW. You need a complete suite dedicated for that mission as in AEGIS cruisers/destroyers.

I'd love to see Greece buying FREMMs thus USA will release AEGIS suite and SM2/ESSM and perhaps even a land attack missile combo for us.

Wow very interesting : I didn't know Greece had offered the ex-Dutch Kortenaer to Pakistan ! Is this news confirmed by any of the 2 navies ?

Regarding your remark on FREMM & AAW : I agree that a FREMM will never compete with an AEGIS destroyer, or with a Horizon destroyer. However since Turkey's navy will operate most of the time within air cover of the mighty air force, having a FREMM with EMPAR and Aster-30 (100km range...) is more than enough to face off any threat from missiles or jets.
It would be a very cost-effective proposition.

cheers

 

[beleg]

There have been news around about it for a while now. Unfortunately they are mostly in Greek. But i found this thanks to alepou340 on World Conflicts Forum.,

After China, Pakistan turns to Greece to build its frigate fleet

Shiv Aroor
Posted online: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 at 0000 hrs

India has 13, in 6 years both may have the same number

NEW DELHI, MAY 16:The Indian Navy today watched closely its Pakistani counterpart beefing up its warship arsenal by ordering four frigates from Greece, and augmenting an existing agreement it has with China to build four F-22P frigates in Karachi starting next year.

Picture this: The Pakistani Navy has seven frigates, as compared to the 13 operated by India. By 2007-end, Pakistan will have 11 frigates to India’s 14. By 2012, the number in both navies could well be the same.

From the maritime defence point of view, Islamabad’s move to build up its frigate strength is significant. While India has long held that its possession of an aircraft carrier gave it a sizeable operational edge over other navies of the region, including Pakistan’s, both navies are now looking at frigates as compact and power-packed platforms capable of the full spectrum of offensive profiles.

Frigates, usually 3,000-4,000 ton warships, are wedged in every sense between missile corvettes at the lower end and the much more heavily armed and longer range destroyers at the upper end, with specialisation in anti-submarine warfare, though newer variants have multiple roles.

The Indian Navy is also keeping tabs on the ongoing visit of Pakistani Navy Chief, Admiral Mohammad Afzal Tahir, to China to push ahead talks on co-production of F-22P frigates in Pakistan.

The navy has long been expressing concern over Beijing’s extremely rapid manufacture and procurement of warships.

‘‘There is no cause for undue worry, but this is an area in which the Pakistan Navy lacks indigenous capability, and the fact that they are now expediting a solution is of importance to us. We know that they plan to acquire indigenous technology to build frigates, and it is a focus area for them,’’ a senior naval officer said.

The seven now in the Pakistani fleet are Ex-Royal Navy frigates.

The Indian Navy’s 13 include three indigenous Godavari-class, three Russian-built Talwar-class, three indigenous Brahmaputra-class and four British Leander-class frigates, the latter almost nearing the end of their operational life. Three Shivalik-class stealth frigates are currently being built at the Western shipyards and three more Talwar-class ships are on order from Russia.

In fact, as a show of its frigate strength and indigenous weapons platforms that will be part of the upcoming Shivalik-class, the Indian Navy is sending its newest frigate INS Tabar, commissioned in 2004, to Australia next month.

The ship are most probably the unmodernised Ellis(Korteaners).

Turkey has an ambitious Navy plan for the next decades. There are plans for a LPD/LHD in the coming decade. So The task force might need to operate outside the range of Airforce (although we have sufficient numbers of tankers). So a true dedicated AAW plans are still out there and will be realised as soon as an AAW suite is released and budget allows..

Still Turkey will have the need for multirole frigates in the next decade olso because of the age of OHPs. FREMM is a great solution there. I think it all depends on the political success of EU road of Turkey.

Currently we have received very good offers for EF-2000 and Mangusta & Tiger AT helos including partnership. If Mr. Berlusconi stayed tho Italy would have better chance selling these to us..

 

[contedicavour]

There have been news around about it for a while now. Unfortunately they are mostly in Greek. But i found this thanks to alepou340 on World Conflicts Forum.,



The ship are most probably the unmodernised Ellis(Korteaners).

Turkey has an ambitious Navy plan for the next decades. There are plans for a LPD/LHD in the coming decade. So The task force might need to operate outside the range of Airforce (although we have sufficient numbers of tankers). So a true dedicated AAW plans are still out there and will be realised as soon as an AAW suite is released and budget allows..

Still Turkey will have the need for multirole frigates in the next decade olso because of the age of OHPs. FREMM is a great solution there. I think it all depends on the political success of EU road of Turkey.

Currently we have received very good offers for EF-2000 and Mangusta & Tiger AT helos including partnership. If Mr. Berlusconi stayed tho Italy would have better chance selling these to us..

If only it had gone that way !! Unfortunately it hasn't, so let's hope that the whole package we're proposing is still competitive and politically viable for Turkey. We're more than happy to provide offsets so that some of the FREMM could be built in the Turkish shipyards, and that some of the technology could be built locally.
Thks for the article on the plans for the Pakistani Navy.
cheers