Small Fish Boats vs 3 Billion USD Destroyer

[kato]

The problem is technology has moved on

A thousand targets will still saturate any current sea surveillance radar that is not highly specialized for that job. This includes AN/SPY-3 on the Zumwalt.

The trick wouldn't be to have those fishing boats throw themselves at the enemy. The trick would be to have a couple platforms with long-range anti-ship missiles within that cluttering cloud of a thousand targets.

 

[jeffb]

A thousand targets will still saturate any current sea surveillance radar that is not highly specialized for that job. This includes AN/SPY-3 on the Zumwalt.

The trick wouldn't be to have those fishing boats throw themselves at the enemy. The trick would be to have a couple platforms with long-range anti-ship missiles within that cluttering cloud of a thousand targets.

Thats a fairly naive point of view, you seem to be expecting the Zumwalt to be operating alone versus a flotilla of thousands...

If you are going to hypothesize naval tactics perhaps you should consider the tactics both sides would employ rather than cherry pick whatever supports your argument. Don't look for "tricks", just look at the obvious information right in front of you...

 

[kato]

Thats a fairly naive point of view, you seem to be expecting the Zumwalt to be operating alone versus a flotilla of thousands...

You seem to be expecting each ship in a flotilla only tracks a certain sector of the target area - of its own choosing - on its own? I'm talking intrinsic limitations of the radar systems used and of the battle networks involved.
The "hiding in the clutter of ships" is nothing new. Established asymmetric naval tactics.

just look at the obvious information right in front of you...

Sure. Then let's look at the obvious information. We have nukes on intercontinental missiles on both sides preventing a wider expansion of any conflict. These systems are stationed outside the range envelope of any conventional weapon systems either side fields.
In this context a Zumwalt doesn't matter. Even if it were packing TLAM-N in its tubes.

 

[STURM]

A Maoist attempt to talk down the importance of quality in the face of quantity.

It would be safe to assume that the PLAN has long come to the realisation that quantity is no substitute for quality and that in terms of technology, a very wide gap still separates it from the USN. Of course they are concerned about the Zumwalt but they won't show it in public, who would? If anything, the Chinese are realists, irrespective of their rhetoric, propaganda and their Maoist ideology. And they are fully aware that they can't match the USN in a direct confrontation and have made plans accordingly, based on their actual capabilities. Whether their plans actually work is a different matter.

It almost sounds like the maritime equivalent of human wave attacks, you just keep sacrificing your people until the enemy runs out of personnel, ammunition or both. The problem is technology has moved on and and the only thing such a strategy would result in this day and age is a great many unnecessary deaths.

Yes technology has moved on and the plain truth is we can only speculate and can't say for certain as to how the Chinese military would conduct itself in a future war. The problem is, the way some perceive the Chinese military will perform or how it is hoped they will perform in the face of American technological superiority is still subconsciously based on what is known from their performance in Korea [which was more than 60 years ago] and their performance in 1979 against Vietnam.

 

[Beatmaster]

hmmm fishing boats filled with TNT to blow up a Destroyer?
Thats like a roadrunner story where the coyote tries one of his new tricks...and it never does end well for the coyote lmao.
Besides that a fishing boat does what? 15 knots? and a Destroyer does what? 22? 30? dunno, but ill bet the Destroyer can make circles around the fishing boat and have it sunk by trowing rotting tomatoes...:flame

 

[jeffb]

You seem to be expecting each ship in a flotilla only tracks a certain sector of the target area - of its own choosing - on its own? I'm talking intrinsic limitations of the radar systems used and of the battle networks involved.
The "hiding in the clutter of ships" is nothing new. Established asymmetric naval tactics.

No I don't expect each ship to operate on its own? That is pure fantasy, I'm not sure how you even thought I was saying that? No Zumwalt will ever operate on its own, that is the point.

There are a ton of problems with this style of flotilla versus a navy with a significant spectrum, more than just radar, of intelligence that are so incredibly obvious that I feel slightly dumber for even thinking about how to respond.

Can anyone really see the USN ignoring such an obvious buildup, then sailing into range of it so this plan actually has a chance of working?... I'm sure the Chinese don't so why should we?...

 

[Belesari]

This is a single guided 155mm round impacting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaJBmyDxtYE

Is that powerful enough for you?

Well lets look at it.

Did a little bit of research will do more but i came up with this.

(Yes wiki because its easy and most people can access it)

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M982_Excalibur"]M982 Excalibur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

BlockII is suposed to be able to carry 2 SADARM.

Looking at this we can see the weights. Total weight for one SADARM is around 26lbs. If a excalibur can carry 2 that would put it at a 52lb warhead head. Maybe a little more or less. So a little bigger punch i figure than the 24lb AGS warhead.

Whats more these rounds at maximum range have a 9 min flight time. Thats alot of error time. And alot of time for them to be tracked. Whats more when they do arive they might well be to light to penetrate the Cover or structures the target is under.

Also sense the AGS is restricted to guided rounds only it can no longer really be used for short range work.

I just think a better solution could have been found.

 

[colay]

The much-maligned LCS is intended to help screen bigger ships from,swarming attacks using precision missiles and rapid-fire cannon and capitalizing on it's speed.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Well lets look at it.

Did a little bit of research will do more but i came up with this.

<snip>

I just think a better solution could have been found.

Nothing you’ve looked up or said has any relevancy to the actual weapon under discussion.

First of all the Zumwalt class AGS does not fire Excalibur rounds. It fires the LRLAP, which has a bursting charge of 11kg of PBX (25 lbs for people in Burma, Liberia and the USA who still use Imperial measurements).

Second of all LRLAP is an artillery weapon so is designed to not destroy a point target via explosive blast but to saturate an area with lethal splinters. The bursting charge is what is used to break up the shell body to create splinters and energize them to lethal speeds. The LRLAP warhead is designed to have a lethality equal to the 155mm M795 HE shell. M795 is a typical enhanced lethality 155mm shell with HHS body to create more and higher energy splinters.

The third thing to understand is that each Zumwalt destroyer carries up to 920 of these shells and can fire up to 20 rounds per minute (two guns). As an artillery weapon it can be used from putting one shell onto a mortar team (as in the video of the Excalibur) through to putting large frontages of shells (eg 8 at a time spaced out over a large area to provide lethal effect to anything in that area) sustained over time (up to 60 minutes of barrage) that will totally deny that area to the enemy. This is called suppression. It denies the enemy the ability to manoeuvre so your own forces can and is also pretty lethal to anything in that area.

Artillery can also be used in a huge number of different ways and if the AGS program gets the long range ballistic shell program refunded will have a range of different shells other than the LRLAP. Including carrier shells for SFMs and the like (like SADRAM).

Vidoe of shell capabilities:

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXyH1OYuyIw"]Long Range Land Attack Projectile (LRLAP) - YouTube[/nomedia]

Video of how it will be used:

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilwIhIwf5yI"]Navy Advanced Gun System Scenario: Non-combatant Evacuation - YouTube[/nomedia]

 

[Belesari]

I used excalibure because that is what was used in the video posted. SO the LRLAP has about half that power.

Yes i knew the other facts too.

Nothing you’ve looked up or said has any relevancy to the actual weapon under discussion.

First of all the Zumwalt class AGS does not fire Excalibur rounds. It fires the LRLAP, which has a bursting charge of 11kg of PBX (25 lbs for people in Burma, Liberia and the USA who still use Imperial measurements).

Second of all LRLAP is an artillery weapon so is designed to not destroy a point target via explosive blast but to saturate an area with lethal splinters. The bursting charge is what is used to break up the shell body to create splinters and energize them to lethal speeds. The LRLAP warhead is designed to have a lethality equal to the 155mm M795 HE shell. M795 is a typical enhanced lethality 155mm shell with HHS body to create more and higher energy splinters.

The third thing to understand is that each Zumwalt destroyer carries up to 920 of these shells and can fire up to 20 rounds per minute (two guns). As an artillery weapon it can be used from putting one shell onto a mortar team (as in the video of the Excalibur) through to putting large frontages of shells (eg 8 at a time spaced out over a large area to provide lethal effect to anything in that area) sustained over time (up to 60 minutes of barrage) that will totally deny that area to the enemy. This is called suppression. It denies the enemy the ability to manoeuvre so your own forces can and is also pretty lethal to anything in that area.

Artillery can also be used in a huge number of different ways and if the AGS program gets the long range ballistic shell program refunded will have a range of different shells other than the LRLAP. Including carrier shells for SFMs and the like (like SADRAM).

Vidoe of shell capabilities:

Long Range Land Attack Projectile (LRLAP) - YouTube

Video of how it will be used:

Navy Advanced Gun System Scenario: Non-combatant Evacuation - YouTube

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I used excalibure because that is what was used in the video posted. SO the LRLAP has about half that power.

You have NO idea what you are talking about. LRLAP and Excalibur have the same size warhead. Saying Excalibur as a carrier round and has twice the 'power' of LRLAP as a unitary round is total nonsense. The explosive content of the Excalibur carrier (Block II) with two SADRAM skeets (SFM) is only 3kg (6.6 lb) so by your ridiculous measure actually ¼ the “power” of an LRLAP. However since the explosive in a SFM is shaped as a EFP as opposed to a unitary bursting charge comparing the two by weight is pointless. Of course Block I Excailbur with a unitary warhead is the same size as LRLAP and if a LRLAP carrier round was developed it would carry two SFMs or 60-70 DPICM like the Excalibur carrier round.