Singapore to acquire Leopard 2A4s

[Waylander]

I have never heard of any changes or upgrades for the Leos which go to Singapore. (Not even a climate control and that would defenitely be reasonable)

And the basic german Leopard IIA4 is not able to fire LAHATs.
But if Singapore pays for it it is defenitely possible.
Tests in germany were done with the LAHAT and as long as I know it is ready for implemention on the Leo II FCS if a customer wants it.

A little bit funny and sad to see that Singapore (a country of 8x20km) is going to have nearly 1/3rd of our own active Leo strength.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Deleted

 

[Waylander]

German or Swedish HE rounds are also a have to IMHO.
Especially when I look at the possible main targets of the Leos and their emphasis on support rather than red horde like anti-tank missions.

 

[Waylander]

Looks like the Leos get a battlefield management system.
Anyone has ideas which one?
My bets are one the Rheinmetall systems like TCCS, LINCE, etc.

 

[kotay]

A little bit funny and sad to see that Singapore (a country of 8x20km) is going to have nearly 1/3rd of our own active Leo strength.

As it is we're already frantically reclaiming land to increase our land area ... please don't shrink us any further

Singapore is an ovoid shaped island roughly 45 x 24 km. Land area is currently about 700 sq. km. But the idea you're mentioning is still the same ... strange, and IMO, rather disturbing that an island nation barely 10% the size of your Black Forest will have that many Leo 2s.

Looks like the Leos get a battlefield management system.
Anyone has ideas which one?
My bets are one the Rheinmetall systems like TCCS, LINCE, etc.

Actually it's a locally developed BMS ... SAF unveils Battlefield Management System

 

[kotay]

German or Swedish HE rounds are also a have to IMHO.
Especially when I look at the possible main targets of the Leos and their emphasis on support rather than red horde like anti-tank missions.

I'd much rather the IMI 120mm APAM round ... IINM, it should be in service about 2009, round about the same time that our Leos are supposed to be IOC.

Even munitions could elicit some interesting speculation. My first guess would be DM53 rounds. However, there are also choices of the KEW or IMI's M338. I wonder if DU rounds can be exported to Singapore.

Based on the above, I'd say we may go for the full suite of Israeli tank munitions produced under license (if possible) to ensure continuity of supply under all circumstances.

With regards to DU rounds, I don't think there's any platform envisioned to be in service in our AoO that'd require that ... although I find it rather strange that The United States Army Environmental Policy Institute (USAEPI) has named Thailand as having developed or are developing DU weapons.

 

[Waylander]

Sorry for that, I didn't intend to shrink your Island.

Looks like I am going to visit Singapore next spring and so have a look by myself.

As for German HE or Israeli APAM.

Both seem to have very similar mission profile and capabilities.
German HE also has timeable fuse as well as explosion at impact or after penetration.
Payload of HE should be bigger but the three directed charges pf APAM should be better directed against infantry behind cover.

 

[Sansei442/100]

I'd be interested to see how the 2A4's engage the 48 PT-91s that Malaysia bought from Poland last year. My guess is the Malays won't stand a chance by considering the fact the Poles are replacing the PT-91s in their army with surplus German 2A4s.

What do you think?

 

[swerve]

I'd be interested to see how the 2A4's engage the 48 PT-91s that Malaysia bought from Poland last year. My guess is the Malays won't stand a chance by considering the fact the Poles are replacing the PT-91s in their army with surplus German 2A4s.

What do you think?

The Poles aren't replacing their PT-91s with Leopard 2A4. So far, they've only got 128 Leo 2A4, & the way the twins are going out of their way to offend Germany, aren't likely to get more in a hurry. Poland has replaced some older T-72s with 2A4. The PT-91 is staying in service. The new-built ones are only 10 years old, & the T-72 conversions are more recent.

 

[SGMilitary]

Leopard 2A4

SAF will definitely acquired more 2A4s.

I heard rumours that these tanks were upgraded to 2A6 standards.

Equipped with locally developed BMI it's 120MM guns are the L55 series.

Any comments?

What about the AV81 Terex.?

There were specualtion that they are replacing the V200?

Is there truth to it?

Thanks.

 

[kotay]

Sorry for that, I didn't intend to shrink your Island.

Looks like I am going to visit Singapore next spring and so have a look by myself.

As for German HE or Israeli APAM.

Both seem to have very similar mission profile and capabilities.
German HE also has timeable fuse as well as explosion at impact or after penetration.
Payload of HE should be bigger but the three directed charges pf APAM should be better directed against infantry behind cover.

Actually an APAM round has 6 submunitions ... IMI APAM Webbie.

Hey, if you're going to be in Singapore, drop me a PM before you come down ... there's not much to see in such a small country but the food's excellent and the locals know where the best food is ... plus I'll buy you a beer :drunk1

The Poles aren't replacing their PT-91s with Leopard 2A4. So far, they've only got 128 Leo 2A4, & the way the twins are going out of their way to offend Germany, aren't likely to get more in a hurry. Poland has replaced some older T-72s with 2A4. The PT-91 is staying in service. The new-built ones are only 10 years old, & the T-72 conversions are more recent.

From what I understand, the Leo 2s the Poles got are for the 10th Armoured Cavalry Brigade. They need the Leos for equipment commonality since the 10th ACB is seconded to the German 7th Panzer Division as part of the NATO-ARRC.

They may have also gotten more Leo 2s for the 34th ACB which is part of the Polish 11th Armoured Cavalry Division (along with the 10th ACB above). IINM, this was done to commonalise the divisional platforms and logistics for 11th ACD.

If the above is correct, then the litmus test will be whether the Polish Land Forces replace the T-72/PT-91 in their other armoured divisions with further Leos. My guess is they will not ... hard to export a platform that your own armed forces are not endorsing

 

[tankee1981]

I am also in the opinion that SAF will get more Leo2A4 MBTs. It is in SAF's tradition to do forward planning so as to ensure sufficient numbers during war time and good source of spares should the German company cease to exist in the future(which itself is very unlikely).

I believe upgrades will be made but mainly done locally with some support from Germany and maybe even Isreal. I think with Singapore's experience in designing, upgrading and producing armoured vehicles, such an arrangement is highly likely.

 

[tankee1981]

double post

 

[swerve]

From what I understand, the Leo 2s the Poles got are for the 10th Armoured Cavalry Brigade. They need the Leos for equipment commonality since the 10th ACB is seconded to the German 7th Panzer Division as part of the NATO-ARRC.

They may have also gotten more Leo 2s for the 34th ACB which is part of the Polish 11th Armoured Cavalry Division (along with the 10th ACB above). IINM, this was done to commonalise the divisional platforms and logistics for 11th ACD....

AFAIK, the Poles want more Leo 2A4, but the Germans aren't willing to deal on Polands terms. The first lot were effectively free. What Poland paid only covered the costs of the transfer, including an overhaul done before delivery. The twins have demanded more tanks, absolutely free. They think Germany still owes Poland for WW2. The Germans will only sell tanks now (no more freebies), & see no reason for Poland to get better terms than any other country. The Polish economy is doing well, so Poland can afford to pay, & why do a favour for a government whose foreign policy consists of insulting Germany?

The Canadian sale has just about finished off the Dutch Leo 2 surplus, unless they decide to cut numbers even further. Switzerland has declared about 100 surplus, but they're not quite the same model. Sweden may be willing to sell some of their 2A4, as the Strv 122 is their front-line model. But Poland would have to pay hard cash for any non-German Leos.

A historian once called Polish 18th century foreign policy "ineptitude elevated to an art form". The twins appear to have taken it as a model.

 

[Waylander]

@kotay

Actually an APAM round has 6 submunitions ... IMI APAM Webbie.

Hey, if you're going to be in Singapore, drop me a PM before you come down ... there's not much to see in such a small country but the food's excellent and the locals know where the best food is ... plus I'll buy you a beer

Thanks for making this clear. As often I should try to read more concentrated.

I will remember the beer. :drunk1

@tankee1981

I am also in the opinion that SAF will get more Leo2A4 MBTs. It is in SAF's tradition to do forward planning so as to ensure sufficient numbers during war time and good source of spares should the German company cease to exist in the future(which itself is very unlikely).

I believe upgrades will be made but mainly done locally with some support from Germany and maybe even Isreal. I think with Singapore's experience in designing, upgrading and producing armoured vehicles, such an arrangement is highly likely.

I doubt that Singapore is able to upgrade anything else than the electronics.
And I would not wonder if there are restrictions in the contract which are about future upgrades. Upgrades are one of the main markets of Rheinmetall/KMW these days with so many surplus A4s floating around and they defenitely don't want to looses this market.


As for Poland.
I expressed my opinion of the Twins and their current policy in another thread.
I also don't see why Poland should pay anything less than others do, especially when one considers that they often enough buy american stuff when they don't get ours for free...

 

[Jezza]

I thought australia should of gone with leopard II instead of Abrams.
Newer tanks with less hours on them instead of 4th hand early builds??

 

[Waylander]

The Aussie Abrams are rebuild ones.
They are now zero hulls back at 0 miles.

Australia wouldn't have got Leo IIs with the same capabilities for a much cheaper price.

 

[kotay]

Saw a Nat Geo program recently on the refurbishment process for these SEP M1s ... it's quite an extensive overhaul. They strip the M1 down to it's bare bones, sand blast it, repaint it and start putting stuff back in again ... mostly new. And if there's any doubt that the Oz M1s got the same treatment, they showed a M1 rolling off the line with a Kangaroo on the turret

The oldest component that went back into the refurbished M1s were, most probably, the AGT-1500 power packs. Since there are no more new builds for the exisiting power packs and the replacement LV100-5 isn't ready yet, they had to do a massive rebuild of the turbine blades to keep it going for just that bit longer ...

 

[Todjaeger]

Saw a Nat Geo program recently on the refurbishment process for these SEP M1s ... it's quite an extensive overhaul. They strip the M1 down to it's bare bones, sand blast it, repaint it and start putting stuff back in again ... mostly new. And if there's any doubt that the Oz M1s got the same treatment, they showed a M1 rolling off the line with a Kangaroo on the turret

The oldest component that went back into the refurbished M1s were, most probably, the AGT-1500 power packs. Since there are no more new builds for the exisiting power packs and the replacement LV100-5 isn't ready yet, they had to do a massive rebuild of the turbine blades to keep it going for just that bit longer ...

Getting a little OT, but with the M1 Abrams, it's not likely that the turbine engine needed to get rebuilt. The engine itself is no longer is in production, but before production ceased something like 2 (or was it 4:unknown ?) turbine engines were built for each M1. Basically there should exist sufficient stockpiles of replacement engines to meet the needs of the M1 community for some time.

-Cheers

 

[Jezza]

Thanks for the feedback guys