Should Germany become a military superpower again?

[swerve]

The problem with most European standing armies (with the possible exception of the UK) is just that, they are 'standing', trapped within a relatively limited geographical area by a severe lack of strategic lift and indigenous logistical supply-chains capable of sustaining out of area operations. ...
The European's need to spend money transforming their militaries in to true expeditionary fighting units, which are backed up by strategic intelligence gathering assets capable of being deployed globally. Until this happens they will remain dinosaur organisations trained and equipped to fight the last war, not the next.

Er - what do you think the disposal of 80% of its tanks, & ordering 60 A400M (as well as a lot of other stuff) is supposed to do to the Bundeswehr? Why do you think the German navy is buying more supply ships, & long-range, long-endurance, warships? Why have France, Spain & the Netherlands built new, higher-capacity, amphibious ships, with more building? What do you think the whole A400M programme is about? And the purchase of tankers by Germany & Italy? The Danish Absalon-class? The lease of ro-ros? SALIS? And, much, much more.

Not enough, IMO, but exactly what you say they should be doing, & claim they have not done.

 

[kato]

Why do you think the German navy is buying more supply ships

Actually, more like simply refocussing the supply to longer-range, farther-abroad expeditionary warfare with new buys. By itself, the supply train is the same tonnage as 20 years ago, and has been reduced to one-third the ship numbers.
You forgot the sat-based strategic intelligence part he critized, currently formed by err... let me look it up... 11 recon sats. Plus 13 military communications sats. And Galileo. And all that just by Germany, France and Italy.

Of course let's not forget the organizational structure. Eurocorps, Eurofor and similar large-scale corps-level battle groups are actually coming along quite fine, and NATO corps-level groups have been increasingly redesigned over the past 20 years to work with purely European components.

 

[swerve]

I did say "and much, much, more". I thought I'd leave the banging on about the satellites, the purchase of long-range UAVs, etc. to someone else.

Fair point about the supply ships, though. Large vessels instead of small, short-range ships.

 

[A.Mookerjee]

Germany was a great military power in the past. The great military proponents, Count Gneisenau, Gerhard von Scharnhorst, and Carl von Clausewitz, reportedly took the German military to great heights. However, there was perhaps, not a benign attitude approached, towards neighbors, and those who followed different ideologies. It is true, that during the two World Wars, because the allied powers did not function properly, perhaps, the war's could not be avoided.
The Spartans were a very warlike race, and it is suggested that they sometimes instigated violence, to match their military prowess. I do not vouchsafe anyone, if I say that the Germans were similar in their approach to war, and I do not say so. The German people could have been protectors of the European fold, and been the benign power, whom the rest of Europe could have followed. However, because of the calamity of fate, they are seen as the perpetrators of injustices, on their neighbors, or at least this can be said of their military arm. I would very much admire the German Armed Forces. However, the Armed Forces were misled, by the politicians, because of the economic prowess of Germany, at the time before the First Great War. I believe, it was the pressures brought on herself, due to her economic prowess, which was the cause of the First World War. Perhaps, Europe was not working in the same vein, but contrary to herself. Perhaps, because the nations of Europe were divided due to economic competition, into different camps, was the reason for the start of the war. The Second Great War was a direct consequence of the first war. Now, also, perhaps there is no need for Germany to bear ill will towards her neighbors. The world is a well knit community. But, will another military superpower, which exists, make the world a safer place?

 

[Firn]

At least in the German empire the fears of an encirclement were ever present and date perhaps back to the 18th century, were in the 7-years war Prussia had to fight against many at once. Among others, it was this fear of a generally desperate strategic situation that shape German military doctrine and strategy after the Napoleonic wars. A desperate strategic situation makes a quick and decisive offensive with the great concentration of force seem very attractive but could come at a political price. However if the political forces were already firmly entrenched in their believes this price might be worth to pay.

To some degree this dilemma is also present in Israeli history and present. The six-day war seemed to a necessary evil to the leadership and proved to be very effective in some ways, but punishing in others. The Yom Kippur war was heavily shaped by the six-day war and was surprisingly more successful at securing the souther flank and international political support.

Nowadays the close integration in the EU has become a great advantage for most competitive of all larger European economies -Germany.

 

[deniz120]

No way!! I think world has seen enough..

 

[backlash92]

No way!! I think world has seen enough..

this is just a question for deniz......why do you say what you say? what is your motivation for your statement. why should germany NOT become a military superpower? first thing that comes to your mind

 

[USNlover]

Perhaps a more prudent question would be: "Should Germany act like a military superpower again?"

In which case, probably not. The Germans won't get anything good from beating up Poland and France again. No point to it.

Germany has the technology and industrial output to be a superpower, but not the will or the population base.

Well, that's not what we are saying, Germany wouldn't do that to its ALLIES :lul
But Germany Does have much potential for being a superpower

 

[Beatmaster]

Well, that's not what we are saying, Germany wouldn't do that to its ALLIES :lul
But Germany Does have much potential for being a superpower

I agree

@to other members,

As USNlover already said Germany does have much potential for being a superpower, i personally believe that it could outclass the UK and France in the long run.
Face it regard less or what we all feel our think but Germany has simply a huge industrial power, compared to the UK and France (Both superpowers)
The last comparison between Germany and the UK/France did proof that even in these economic bad times the german Industrial out put is all most twice as big as the UK and France together.
And yes every EU member suffers from the current economic problems, but the EU has still enough cashflow, Germany it self has enough economic problems but it still has enough economical power within the EU borders and even beyond it.
I do not wanna just type a one sided view here, but a comparison between Russia/US/China and Germany is total bullshit there is no way you can compare it due the numbers and size on the otherhand i strongly believe that everyone who said here that the Germans cannot become a superpower is missing the point here a little backflash to WW2:

Numbers:
The total number of soldiers who served in the Wehrmacht during its existence from 1935 until 1945 is believed to approach 18.2 million. This figure was put forward by historian Rüdiger Overmans and represents the total number of people who ever served in the Wehrmacht, and not the force strength of the Wehrmacht at any point. About 1.3 million Wehrmacht soldiers were killed in action; 250,000 died from non-combat causes; 2.0 million missing in action and unaccounted for after the war; and 359,000 POW deaths, of whom 77,000 were in the custody of the U.S., UK, and France; POW dead includes 266,000 in the post war period after June 1945, primarily in Soviet captivity.

Count the numbers ok? And you will agree that germany was even more than a superpower right?
Ok differend times so comparison is almost impossible tot the current years but just for fun to point out that Germany is already a superpower:

Ok current situation:

The Bundeswehr is divided into a military part (armed forces or Streitkräfte) and a civil part with the armed forces administration (Wehrverwaltung), the federal bureau of procurement (Bundesamt für Wehrtechnik und Beschaffung) and the federal bureau for information management and information technology of the Bundeswehr (Bundesamt für Informationsmanagement und Informationstechnik der Bundeswehr, sometimes abbreviated as IT-AmtBw). The military part of the federal defense force consists of Army (Heer), Navy (Marine), Air Force (Luftwaffe), Joint Support Service (Streitkräftebasis), and Central Medical Services (Zentraler Sanitätsdienst) branches.

The Bundeswehr has 200,500 professional soldiers, 55,000 18-25 year-old conscripts who serve for at least nine months under current rules [4], and 2,500 active reservists at any given time. The number of civilian employees is to be reduced to 75,000 during the coming years. The reserve consists of a "reinforcement reserve" of 55,000 scheduled reservists and an "operative reserve" of roughly 300,000 personnel. They participate in reserve drills as well as abroad deployments.


Available for military service 19,594,118 (2009 est.), age 17–49
Fit for military service 15,747,493 (2009 est.), age 17–49
Reaching military 445,048 (2009 est.)
Reserve personnel 355,000 (2009 est.)

The role of the Bundeswehr is described in the German Basic Law (Art. 87a) as absolutely defensive only. Its only active role before 1990 was the Katastropheneinsatz (disaster control) within the Bundeswehr helped after natural disasters both in Germany and abroad. After 1990, the international situation changed from East-West confrontation to one of general uncertainty and instability. Today, after a ruling of the Federal Constitutional Court in 1994 the term "defense" has been defined to not only include protection of the borders of Germany, but also crisis reaction and conflict prevention, or more broadly as guarding the security of Germany anywhere in the world. According to the definition given by former Defense Minister Struck, it may be necessary to defend Germany even at the Hindu Kush. This requires the Bundeswehr to take part in operations outside of the borders of Germany, as part of NATO or the European Union and mandated by the UN.


Just count the numbers ok? then i ask you direct can germany be a superpower?
Look at this:
Available for military service 19,594,118 (2009 est.), age 17–49
Fit for military service 15,747,493 (2009 est.), age 17–49

Thats 15.7 million soldiers that germany could call in to the fight, add to this fact the huge industrial power and huge stockpile of recourses that germany has.
Add the Tanks,aircrafts, the navy and support sections.
Add the current technological levels of the german armed forces and industrial systems it currently has.
Add the huge economy to this

Then i ask you again are you really sure that Germany is not an superpower?
Are you really sure they could not project their power anywhere on the planet?


Ok i know this is just numbers and they mean nothing but just see my point.
France is a superpower, the UK are a superpower and fact is that Germany is one to it might even outclass France and the UK.
And just forget the past for a sec, these numbers are hard facts So its not the question should Germany become a superpower or can it be IT already is one because lets face it roughly 16 million soldiers is sure as hell a superpower added the list of factors and you see that Germany is a superpower.
Then the real question is: Should Germany be allowed to make use of this power to serve its obligations as a full Nato and EU member because we all know that France and the Uk are not always charmed by the fact that Germany is breathing down there necks and to add one more question should keep Germany its huge army or should it decrease it a bit and make it even more technological advanced?

I believe that are the true questions that should be asked because the road that Germany did take a few years ago made them a major player who cannot be denied as a superpower.

Greetz Beastmaster


Edit: Please leave the Nukes and Bioweapons away because having those are not saying you are a superpower.
For example give a small country as luxembourg 100 nukes and it would be a superpower. So a comparison with nukes involved is bullshit

 

[Firn]

Some good thoughts.


(i) I would not rank France or Britain as superpower, but as greater powers. Only the USA has this statuts.

(ii) As you said Germany has the largest population and by far the largest industrial base. It is the economic powerhouse of Europe with some expections since 1880 or so.

(iii) Germany is already arguably the most important country in the EU. Togheter with France it was the driving force of an integretation which in the long run proved to be a very profitable path.

 

[swerve]

...
...
Just count the numbers ok? then i ask you direct can germany be a superpower?
Look at this:
Available for military service 19,594,118 (2009 est.), age 17–49
Fit for military service 15,747,493 (2009 est.), age 17–49

Thats 15.7 million soldiers that germany could call in to the fight, add to this fact the huge industrial power and huge stockpile of recourses that germany has....

Can't have 15.7 million soldiers and "huge industrial power". Those 15.7 million include the majority of the industrial workforce. Their skills cannot be replaced quickly or easily.

And in any case, sheer numbers of bodies ceased to be a significant criterion for military strength long ago.

 

[Beatmaster]

Can't have 15.7 million soldiers and "huge industrial power". Those 15.7 million include the majority of the industrial workforce. Their skills cannot be replaced quickly or easily.

And in any case, sheer numbers of bodies ceased to be a significant criterion for military strength long ago.

True but thats not what i mean, i just did try to point out that the options germany has are exeptional large.
Leave the current superpowers away like USA/RUSSIA and CHINA,
And tell me what country could match or outmatch the germans based on their current level and you will see that the list grows very small.
But its true what you said France and UK are Greater powers fact remains that germany has a status that matches UK and France and it even might outclass them so being a superpower or greater power is a very thin line in this case.

 

[kato]

Can't have 15.7 million soldiers and "huge industrial power".

The Cold War estimates used 1.3 million soldiers, 3 million civilian wartime support (civilian protection) and further had something like 5 million in nationalized industry branches that had some wartime duties.

 

[USNlover]

Can't have 15.7 million soldiers and "huge industrial power".

Yes you can look at USA/RUSSIA/CHINA nfloorl:

 

[kato]

None of which remotely have 20% of their population as soldiers.

Present force levels, as percentage of population:
China - 0.17%
Germany - 0.30%
USA - 0.48%
Russia - 0.73%

Next.

 

[swerve]

Yes you can look at USA/RUSSIA/CHINA nfloorl:

The USA has never thought of mobilising anything like that proportion of its population. Russia & China only ever dreamed of mobilising that proportion of their populations to repel invaders - and then only if the invader was winning. As with Israel, or Sweden, or Finland, or Switzerland, they understood that mobilisation on that scale requires shutting down much of the economy, & must only be done when it's the only way to secure national survival.

 

[Verstandwaffe]

Germany should !

Past is in the past, other countries have commited and still cause much pain and harm and i see no one blaming them.

A couple of years ago Fortune or Forbes magazine made an analysis on which countries would be second to USA as world power, Germany happened to be rated # 2 due to economics, politics, science, military presence a somewhat surprising outcome.

 

[Falstaff]

Germany should !

Why? Is there some benefit for Germany or the rest of the world?

As a sidenote, Germany's government is rather upset we're not a superpower with the corresponding power projection capabilities these days.
Although this weeks "Der Spiegel" reports that the GSG 9 mission to free pirate hostages mainly didn't take place because of administrative disarrangement, some equipment deficiencies have now made their way to our politicians; namely the lack of long range, high capacity air transport, the lack of a LPD/amphibious assault ship we can base troops on and deploy them from there, recconaissance and communication gear. These issues have been known for years, but now that their is a real and tangible threat, perhaps something happens.
Reportedly Secretary Jung now thinks about reviving plans for German LPDs.
At least some power projection capability might come in handy now.

 

[swerve]

Reportedly Secretary Jung now thinks about reviving plans for German LPDs.
At least some power projection capability might come in handy now.

Aha! I hear the clink of champagne glasses at TKMS. Dust off the MRD 150 plans!

 

[Falstaff]

Aha! I hear the clink of champagne glasses at TKMS. Dust off the MRD 150 plans!

You bet on that. I hope that some of the defense insiders will keep their ears wide open, perhaps we'll know within a few days. Although personally I think that nothing will happen before the elections in october.