Self-propelled mortars

[adroth]

Both the Light Armored Division (LAD) of the Philippine Army and the Combat Service & Support Brigate (CSSB) of the Philippine Marines are both pursuing self-propelled mortar development programs.

The LAD systems are based on a modified M113 chassis, while the Marines are mounting theirs on old V-150s [which were brought back from the junkyard, thanks to the availability of powerplants freed up by the first phase of the Light Armor System Upgrade (LARSU)].

The interesting thing about both programs is that they are reportedly mounting 81mm tubes in these vehicles . . . not something bigger. The 81's are reportedly the largest tubes the AFP has in the inventory, so in the interim, these will have to do.

Presumably these interim systems will give field commanders experience employing artillery systems that are more mobile than the towed systems that they are used to.

=== ~~~ ====

The US used to have 81mm SPM/mortar carriers back in the 60s. More recent carriers, however, now pack a bigger punch. The M1129, their latest SPM, carries a 120mm mortar.

Are there still any armies out there that use 81mm mortars in their mortar carriers?

 

[kato]

Denmark has the M125A1 - a M113 with 81mm mortar.

The USMC LAV-M also carries a M252 81mm mortar btw.

 

[eckherl]

Denmark has the M125A1 - a M113 with 81mm mortar.

The USMC LAV-M also carries a M252 81mm mortar btw.

You forgot the M106 107mm mortar that the U.S was using from the late 70s on, early eighties Cav Squadron TO&E used to have four assigned to each cav troop. U.S armor battalions during that time frame used to have 6 to 12 units assigned to the Headquarters company.

 

[ROCK45]

Mortar rounds

Are 81mm mortar round effective against BMP-3 and BTR-series if rounds hit on tops of the vehicles?

Can mortar round be used in urban warfare to target insurgents hiding between houses or building if spotted? I would think since the angle it might effective because the rounds might drop down between building?


Thanks

 

[kato]

eckherl: no, i didn't. he said "still".

I think there are still a number of current examples in the Far East. Japan, Korea and China all have/had such vehicles with 81/82/107mm mortars.

adroth: Do hackjob portees like the 82mm Vasilyev automatic mortar on a MT-LB count? China mounts the same (Type 99) on a jeep btw.

 

[eckherl]

eckherl: no, i didn't. he said "still".

I think there are still a number of current examples in the Far East. Japan, Korea and China all have/had such vehicles with 81/82/107mm mortars.

adroth: Do hackjob portees like the 82mm Vasilyev automatic mortar on a MT-LB count? China mounts the same (Type 99) on a jeep btw.

Ah, I havent seen any around for quite awhile now in U.S inventory, did not bother to factor in other countries seeings how it seems that everyone is going to 120mm on the western arms purchasers.

 

[Chrom]

Are 81mm mortar round effective against BMP-3 and BTR-series if rounds hit on tops of the vehicles?

Can mortar round be used in urban warfare to target insurgents hiding between houses or building if spotted? I would think since the angle it might effective because the rounds might drop down between building?


Thanks

1. Yes, it is effective.
2. It can hit targets behind obstacles - but something as high as big 30m height house might be too much.

Besides, russians have self-propelled automatic 120mm mortar (NONA) quite long time in service.

 

[DavidDCM]

Are there still any armies out there that use 81mm mortars in their mortar carriers?

You can take a look in the direct neighborhood of the Philippines for a better comparison. Some Southeastasian nations have them.

Malaysia has 4 MIFV mortar carriers and 10 Adnan ACV-300 mortar carriers. Both with 81mm mortars. They will be augmented by 8 ACV-S mortar carriers with a 120mm system somewhen in the future.

Thailand has the 81mm mortar mounted on the M113. Dunno the numbers.

Singapore has AFAIK also the M113 with a 81mm but is planning to replace them with the 120mm Bronco MTC.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Are there still any armies out there that use 81mm mortars in their mortar carriers?

Yep, the Australian Army for one. We will be continuing to do so for some time as our M113 upgrade project is delivering 25x M113 81mm mortar variants, so they will be around as long as the M113AS3/4 is in-service (2020 or thereabouts).

Regards

AD

 

[tatra]

Are there still any armies out there that use 81mm mortars in their mortar carriers?

Some:

South Korea K281A1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-200_KAFV
United Kingdom FV432 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FV432
Israel M113 variant http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/armored_personnel_carriers/m-113/Mortar.html
South Africa Ratel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratel_IFV
France (army) VAB VPM 81 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Véhicule_de_l'Avant_Blindé
Chine YW383 82mm
etc

 

[adroth]

Thanks a lot for the education gents. The replies are most appreciated.

 

[gforce]

Has the AFP addressed problems with its Mortar ammunition that either does not fire or does not explode? I saw a live TV coverage of Philippine soldiers trying to fire a mortar and when they loaded it with mortar shells, the mortar did not fire. It happened twice and there was a probe made that discovered that many Philippine military mortar shells were defective.

Having a defective mortar shell fired from an APC can be more dangerous because the crew is contained in an armored carrier which makes it hard for them to escape immediately if the defective shell explodes before leaving the mortar cannon - an instant loss of life and material/equipment under one accident.

 

[searchfun]

You can take a look in the direct neighborhood of the Philippines for a better comparison. Some Southeastasian nations have them.

Singapore has AFAIK also the M113 with a 81mm but is planning to replace them with the 120mm Bronco MTC.

Singapore SP mortar had been upgrade to 120mm years back beforce the M113 converted to Bronco. Infantry organic motar PL also converted to 120mm light motar years back. I guess 81mm mortar is a history in SAF (may be some very old reserve infantry unit might still in 81mm but soon will be out as the most these units left 1 or 2 yrs of service)

 

[adroth]

Has the AFP addressed problems with its Mortar ammunition that either does not fire or does not explode?

Those were the result of a combination of storage issues and failure on the part of unit commanders to follow SOPs with regard to ammunition stock management. In humid environments like the Philippines, failure in either of the above tasks costs lives.

Check out the following discussions:

http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=9992.0

GA: Improving ammo storage with new plastic boxes

 

[Chino]

Singapore SP mortar had been upgrade to 120mm years back beforce the M113 converted to Bronco. Infantry organic motar PL also converted to 120mm light motar years back. I guess 81mm mortar is a history in SAF (may be some very old reserve infantry unit might still in 81mm but soon will be out as the most these units left 1 or 2 yrs of service)

Correct that SAF M113 SP mortar had been the 120mm for ages before introduction of Bronco.

However, is the 81mm totally out?

To me, old-fashioned as I am, the 81 is more of a true infantry mortar. If you need something heavy like the 120mm, you should call the arty guys with their 120mm towed or 155mm howitzers.

 

[OPSSG]

Correct that SAF M113 SP mortar had been the 120mm for ages before introduction of Bronco.

However, is the 81mm totally out?

To me, old-fashioned as I am, the 81 is more of a true infantry mortar. If you need something heavy like the 120mm, you should call the arty guys with their 120mm towed or 155mm howitzers.

Yes, Chino your info is dated. That is why Singapore uses the light strike vehicle (LSV).
[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUdI42HUw4o&feature=related[/nomedia]

[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRSLncyP26g[/nomedia]

LSVs are used by the ATGM platoon and the 120mm mortar platoon of the support company in infantry battalions (see pix). In armour units, their 120mm mortar platoon will be on Broncos. The idea is not to manpack the mortars any more, given the off-road capabilities of these vehicles. This arrangement gives the mortar platoon the ability to cover longer ranges (max range - standard ammo = 9 km, assisted ammo =13 km). One important limitation of manpacking is the limited ammo than can be carried in the Army 2000 support company force structure implemented after you RODed. If necessary, these platoons and their vehicles will be heli inserted (this includes the ammo support vehicles). This is why the low recoil SRAMs was invented - to enable the SAF to mount 120mm mortars on a small heli-portable platform like the LSV. The mortar platoon is not going to walk - this has got to do with other considerations that I suspect are not open source.

Even the concept of Direct Support (DS) for the line battalions at Bde and Div Artillery has changed, with the introduction of STORM teams and the Division Strike Centre. Your early '80s concept of how SAF works is a bit dated. BTW, conceptually, a line battalion can only call for immediate support if DS is allocated. Unplanned fires are taken care of by organic assets first before the request is kicked up the chain by the FSO/CO to higher command.

BTW, I'm not defending SAF's concept of ops - I'm just telling you what has changed.

 

[Chino]

Yes, Chino your info is dated. That is why Singapore uses the light strike vehicle (LSV).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUdI42HUw4o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRSLncyP26g

LSVs are used by the ATGM platoon and the 120mm mortar platoon of the support company in infantry battalions. In armour units, their 120mm mortar platoon will be on Broncos. The idea is not to manpack the mortars any more, given the off-road capabilities of these vehicles. This arrangement gives the mortar platoon to cover longer ranges. One important limitation of manpacking is the limited ammo than can be carried in the Army 2000 support company force structure implemented after you RODed. If necessary, these platoons and their vehicles will be heli inserted (this includes the ammo support vehicles). This is why the low recoil SRAMs was invented - to enable the SAF to mount 120mm mortars on a small heli-portable platform like the LSV. The mortar platoon is not going to walk - this has got to do with other considerations that I suspect are not open source.

Even the concept of Direct Support (DS) for the line battalions at Bde and Div Artillery has changed, with the introduction of STORM teams and the Division Strike Centre. Your early '80s concept of how SAF works is a bit dated. BTW, conceptually, a line battalion can only call for immediate support if DS is allocated. Unplanned fires are taken care of by organic assets first before the request is kicked up the chain by the FSO/CO to higher command.

BTW, I'm not defending SAF's concept of ops - I'm just telling you what has changed.

Thanks for the update to an old retired corporal!

Also doesn't help that I never served in a normal infantry unit as I did my time in an oddly-organized PDF regiment.

Interesting to know that SAF infantry units are becoming very "motorized".

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys,can some one tell which is the biggest caliber of self propelled mortars and what advantages or diadvantages it offers,also are there any mortar systems which offer rapid fire and terminal guidance abilities.

also which is more accurate a mortar or a 155mm sph.

 

[kato]

Biggest in history, or biggest currently?

Biggest historically would be the German "Karl Device" at 600mm caliber during World War II, a 124-ton monster that could move around at 10 km/h.
Biggest currently is the Russian 2S4 at 240mm caliber.

 

[Feanor]

I really wonder why none of the Russian 2S4s have been sold off... they should still have hundreds in a warehouse, but only a single btln of them is currently active. I can only imagine how much use a third world country could get out of them. Forget accuracy, the rounds are so huge you could flatten villages with them.