Self-defense options and needs from around the world

[ADMk2]

An interesting concept could be where a person, armed with a firearm, is confronted by another person who is unarmed but physically capable of and determined to attack the armed individual and take their firearm to use against them and/or others. Shooting this person could be justified as not to have done so could reasonably have resulted in the death of the person being attacked and that of others unable to defend themselves against the attacker once they had obtained the weapon.

True, thought the shooter would have several things to explain, most likely to a criminal court...

Why were you carrying said weapon? Why was it loaded? Why did you confront this person? What other options did you consider? How could you have possibly known so much about this person's ability and intent to use lethal force against you, using your own weapon? Are you lawfully allowed to carry loaded firearms? If you knew so much, why did you put yourself in this situation in the first place? And so on.

People have shot and killed other people in Australia and not been charged with an unlawful killing offence, but it's an exception to the rule.

A self-defence argument is always going to be examined in minute detail in the case of what otherwise, would be a homicide (even if it is only manslaughter through diminished criminal responsibility).

 

[King Wally]

Self defence in Australia is particularly hard. Then again due to firearm control your also got very very little chance of getting shot here as well. While yes organised crime can get weapons (at prices far inflated to what they would be in places like the US) your average thug on the street generally cant and realisticly this is the guy (demographic) that causes most problems in places such as the states. The organised gangs seam to save their shoot outs for other members of gangs or dealers / associates that cross them the wrong way. Generally speaking anyway.

ADMk sums it up pretty well...

Most Australian States allow the wearing of knives and carrying of other "restricted items" for "reasonable purposes", ie: is it reasonable in the circumstances. Wearing a machete in the middle of a mall would probably not be deemed reasonable, but a fisherman or a farmer etc wearing a blade in the course of their everyday activities would be fine.

Wearing a leatherman or small pocket knife would likely be deemed acceptable in most everyday situations. I've not ever heard of a requirement to remove a blade from a leatherman and I can't really see how it could be enforced. You can keep the pointy screwdriver, corkscrew or the sharp saw blade, but not the small knife blade?

It is a general rule that you are not authorised to carry anything for self-defence, but you can use anything to defend yourself, so long as the force used is proportionate, ie: if you were attacked with a knife, a gun or some other weapon likely to be lethal, it would generally be lawful to use a knife or some other weapon to defend yourself, including a firearm.

But you can't carry these lawfully as a normal member of society, if they are lawfully within reach when you need them to defend yourself against a proportionate amount of force or threat of force however...

:gun

I've heard some stories regarding carrying knives, I heard a guy that had a leatherman in his car and the police told him to remove the blade or face a fine... also heard plenty of stories of police handing out big fines for small pocket knives being carried on person. The reasonable purpose rule you mentioned is the key. I've seen old farmers getting around with pocket knives fine but you slap a hoody on a 18 year old and your instantly in a lot of trouble no matter what your story is I'd hazard a guess.

As you say when it comes to self defence in Australia you want to first up hope your physically fit, secondly either know how to fight or taken a martial arts or boxing class at some stage in your life or are quick minded and can improvise something from your surroundings.

I've personally thought for a while that Women over 18 (or men and women say over 65) with a clean criminal history should be able to hold a carry permit to have pepper spray or a small lower voltage tazer, maybe small knife in their purse/person. It would flood the market with the items however so you would need large on the spot fines for young men or people without carry permits who get caught with them. I'm physicly fit enough to run away or fight back if I needed but I do feel sorry for those that just dont have that basic ability behind them.

 

[caikminyc]

Krav Maga

I may sound biased with my answer because I work for a self defense school here in NYC, well, a good self defense option is Krav Maga. It is a complete self defense tactics system originally developed in the Israeli Defense Forces by Imi Lichtenfeld for use in the military. It evolved and was developed as a form of self defense for use by civilians, security and law enforcement professionals. What is it about Krav Maga that makes it so effective? Each Krav Maga lesson provides training in easy to learn self defense and combat and fighting techniques that are fun, get you incredibly fit and feeling confident. Even after only a few short weeks of training.

 

[prepping 2015]

So, given that this is an international defence forum catering to members from around the world... What are some of the different self-defense options available amongst different countries? Along with that, what are the realistic self-defense needs or potential threats in different countries?

In the US for instance, there are a wide varierty of options available, depending on who one is and where in the US one lives/works/travels.

Further, while there are differing standards on what level or degree of force is acceptable when defending onself, the notion that one has a right to defend onself is well understood.

Lastly, depending on where one lives, there could be a very low threat risk, up to a very high degree of risk. The general spread tends to have the risk the lowest in areas of low to middling population density like rural-rural suburban areas, with low unemployment and fairly low wealth disparity. The risk tends to be amongst the highest in areas of high population density, especially if significant portions of the population are unemployed or underemployed and experiencing economic hardship. This is further exacerbated if/when the area is a high traffic area with people constantly locating to, or re-locating from or within the region. Lastly, if there is a major disparity in wealth distribution, that can be a further drive up pontential risks.

What are other countries like?

-Cheers

In England, there is a great deal of variety and availability in martial arts training, however there is not much need to use it, other than in more urban areas where crime risk is much greater such as certain areas of London, Liverpool and Manchester. We also have a much lower rate of gun crime as we have very strict gun control here. Overall we have quite low potential risk in most parts of the country.

 

[Todjaeger]

In England, there is a great deal of variety and availability in martial arts training, however there is not much need to use it, other than in more urban areas where crime risk is much greater such as certain areas of London, Liverpool and Manchester. We also have a much lower rate of gun crime as we have very strict gun control here. Overall we have quite low potential risk in most parts of the country.

One of the more interesting things I have come across was a crime-rate comparison between the US and England & Wales (Scotland has it's own set of statistics). When comparing population centres with 250k+ people, the rate of violent crime was slightly higher in England & Wales than in the US. Of course the rate of firearms crime was higher in the US due to much greater availability. One of the other reasons why US numbers are so different is the much greater number of cities with over 250,000 inhabitants than England & Wales.

The evidence itself is somewhat anecdotal, but it does suggest that most (violent) crimes occurs in areas of high population density, and at fairly comparable rates though of potentially different types.

 

[Alkyonios]

An interesting concept could be where a person, armed with a firearm, is confronted by another person who is unarmed but physically capable of and determined to attack the armed individual and take their firearm to use against them and/or others. Shooting this person could be justified as not to have done so could reasonably have resulted in the death of the person being attacked and that of others unable to defend themselves against the attacker once they had obtained the weapon.

What is the big deal about this? If you live outside US you are certainly NOT permitted to carry guns as a civilian.

 

[SASWanabe]

im a little late but :

As a civilian in Aus i am legally permitted to possess handguns (courtesy of a handgun license) but if i were to be caught with it anywhere aside from - At home, on the way to the range, at the range, or on my way home from the range. i would be in a whole heap of trouble.

In Aus (QLD atleast not sure of the other states) the only legitimate reason to own a Handgun is for use during competitions at gun clubs anything else is off limits.

 

[StingrayOZ]

im a little late but :

As a civilian in Aus i am legally permitted to possess handguns (courtesy of a handgun license) but if i were to be caught with it anywhere aside from - At home, on the way to the range, at the range, or on my way home from the range. i would be in a whole heap of trouble.

In Aus (QLD atleast not sure of the other states) the only legitimate reason to own a Handgun is for use during competitions at gun clubs anything else is off limits.

At least in NSW security guards can carry handguns/psitols under 1F classification.

In NSW you can also apply to the police commissioner for a permit. I imagine that is used for some body guards or security protection. However, Justin Bieber's security guards are unlikely to be granted permits.

President of the united states are likely to get as many permits as they want and can carry MP5's to shoot to kill to protect the president (if anyone get through the 100 or so armed regular NSW officers).

 

[old faithful]

im a little late but :

As a civilian in Aus i am legally permitted to possess handguns (courtesy of a handgun license) but if i were to be caught with it anywhere aside from - At home, on the way to the range, at the range, or on my way home from the range. i would be in a whole heap of trouble.

In Aus (QLD atleast not sure of the other states) the only legitimate reason to own a Handgun is for use during competitions at gun clubs anything else is off limits.

Dont know how much trouble you would really be in.
A young bloke up here (darwin) who has a crimminal record that would make most crims blush, was caught with an unregistered, unlicenced Smith and Wesson .460. The gun was not sold in the NT, there are only 2 other persons in Darwin and both still have theirs, so not stolen in the NT. He got 21 days prison.
He was back in prison shortly after, a home invasion, stole car and burnt it out. The home invasion was at night. He did about 2 months on remand, and is now out on bail.
The law is an ass. I was the target of the home invasion, same name, wrong address. I know this, but cant elborate.

 

[King Wally]

I would be playing it cautious. I recall watching the news one night recently as a young bloke was being arrested on the Gold Coast for having an air-rifle in the boot of his car. The way everyone was carrying on it was like he was a terrorist about to assassinate the pope. And that was a simple single shot slug gun, locked in his boot. I can't tell you what he got convicted of but it was face to the pavement, cuffs on and tossed into the back of the wagon with a dumb look on his face proclaiming he didn't know they were illegal. I've seen similar treatment for possession of replica's and even had a mate of a mate convicted of being a passenger in a car holding a child's toy gun that didn't even look real (apparently pointed it toward a motorist and that was enough to land him in very serious trouble).

You really can't get away with a lot when it comes to firearms here in Aus. Not without a lot of drama or chasing permits anyway.

 

[Rising Eagle]

For people living in the U.S:

Go to harbor freight and check out their motion sensors. For $10 you can get a motion sensor that you can place anywhere and have the alarm go off somewhere else. I would highly recommend getting this for home security. Its also a nice thing to have when you go camping.

 

[tonyUSA]

Self defence

Hi, due to immense increase in crime rate, learning how to defense ourselves has become a major need these days.
Due to hectic schedules, many people don’t get enough time to take such type of training. For such people, it would be better to stay equipped with self defense items. In fact these days there are lots of self defense items available in the market as well as at online stores like Guard dog security which is among the very well known sources for these items.
Self defense weapons are useful for ladies, teenagers and even for old citizens.

 

[donnadelgado]

Self defence items

Hey, the brand you told about is actually very much well known and been already tried by me. Thanks alot!

 

[SASWanabe]

^lol not obvious at all

 

[old faithful]

True, thought the shooter would have several things to explain, most likely to a criminal court...

Why were you carrying said weapon? Why was it loaded? Why did you confront this person? What other options did you consider? How could you have possibly known so much about this person's ability and intent to use lethal force against you, using your own weapon? Are you lawfully allowed to carry loaded firearms? If you knew so much, why did you put yourself in this situation in the first place? And so on.

People have shot and killed other people in Australia and not been charged with an unlawful killing offence, but it's an exception to the rule.

A self-defence argument is always going to be examined in minute detail in the case of what otherwise, would be a homicide (even if it is only manslaughter through diminished criminal responsibility).

SA has a castle like law, where if you kill someone who is committing a crime on your property, you cant be charged with murder, only manslaughter.
Then NT, break and enter at a persons premises at night, carries a much harsher sentence than a day time offence, but magistrates rarley punish crims harshly, the prisons are already full.
As for tasers, stun guns, pepper spray etc, all prohibited or restricted weapons in the NT.
Use of force in self defence is pretty easy to justify, how can anyone prove "how you felt?" You were terrified, and thought the intruder was going to kill you.

 

[Ondrej]

So, given that this is an international defence forum catering to members from around the world... What are some of the different self-defense options available amongst different countries? Along with that, what are the realistic self-defense needs or potential threats in different countries?

In the US for instance, there are a wide varierty of options available, depending on who one is and where in the US one lives/works/travels.

Further, while there are differing standards on what level or degree of force is acceptable when defending onself, the notion that one has a right to defend onself is well understood.

Lastly, depending on where one lives, there could be a very low threat risk, up to a very high degree of risk. The general spread tends to have the risk the lowest in areas of low to middling population density like rural-rural suburban areas, with low unemployment and fairly low wealth disparity. The risk tends to be amongst the highest in areas of high population density, especially if significant portions of the population are unemployed or underemployed and experiencing economic hardship. This is further exacerbated if/when the area is a high traffic area with people constantly locating to, or re-locating from or within the region. Lastly, if there is a major disparity in wealth distribution, that can be a further drive up pontential risks.

What are other countries like?

-Cheers

Self-defense is a countermeasure that involves defending the health and well-being of oneself from harm. The use of the right of self-defense as a legal justification. Some styles train primarily for self-defense, while other martial or combat sports can be effectively applied for self-defense

 

[Traveller]

So, given that this is an international defence forum catering to members from around the world... What are some of the different self-defense options available amongst different countries? Along with that, what are the realistic self-defense needs or potential threats in different countries?


What are other countries like?

-Cheers

I live in Australia as a dual citizen, but Australia has largely been covered. The members posts have well high-lighted the differences between states and the level of interpretation available to state police.

I'll mention a couple of countries I am familiar with as best as I can, Israel and Zambia.

Israel: Firearms-Control Legislation and Policy: Israel | Law Library of Congress

The link will cover an insight into Israeli law in English. (A Hebrew link would breach forum rules)

In practice: Israeli law provides for citizens to own one handgun for self-defence. There is no restriction on cailbre, barrel length or magazine capacity. You may possess 50 rounds. So far so good...however Israel Police will generally only issue a permit if you live in a red zone, eg Golan, Lebanese border. If you live in Tel Aviv, don't bother. Long arms like centre-fire semi-autos are out of the question. You may carry your licenced handgun anywhere in Israel, so if you live in Metula and want to holiday in Eilat, no problem.

Risk: All day every day. Mostly stabbings; rocks through windscreens from moving cars (killed a number of people) and in recent years vehicle attacks on pedestrians.

Zambia: http://www.parliament.gov.zm/sites/default/files/documents/acts/Firearms Act.pdf

Zambian law permits a handgun and it can be carried for self-defence. Cost and availability are limiting factors.
In practice Zambia police can be accommodating or quite hard. When events like election periods come around the police will not necessarily accept self-defence as a reason to carry in public even if the handgun is licenced to you. Read police have latitude.

Risk: Gang thuggery for robbery, rape, vehicle theft are real risks. For context, most middle class native Zambians and expats live in homes surrounded by high walls topped with razor wire and electric fencing with entry via a solid metal gate.

 

[ngatimozart]

In NZ you can only use the minimum amount of force for self defence, so a using claymore mine or a 50 cal is not deemed self defence if someone comes at you with a knife. We were taught that right from the start when we first joined the NZDF. And as some other posters have stated the law is an ass here too. Bash a cop all you get is slapped with a wet soggy bus ticket. Don't pay your taxes, hefty fine and maybe off to prison you go.

 

[Traveller]

In NZ you can only use the minimum amount of force for self defence, so a using claymore mine or a 50 cal is not deemed self defence if someone comes at you with a knife.

Probably showing my age here but in the area of reasonable force used in self-defence, I highly recommend Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme". It is written by an Arab-American who was a legend in the 1980's for his achievements (that's a teaser for the interested to read up on him). It is American-centric and largely deals with legally armed citizenry. However he provides insight (he was police) into how police perceive and assess what is reasonable force.

 

[ngatimozart]

Probably showing my age here but in the area of reasonable force used in self-defence, I highly recommend Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme". It is written by an Arab-American who was a legend in the 1980's for his achievements (that's a teaser for the interested to read up on him). It is American-centric and largely deals with legally armed citizenry. However he provides insight (he was police) into how police perceive and assess what is reasonable force.

One good thing about being a Kiwi is that we don't have the US fixation upon the second amendment to their constitution and with guns. To an outsider it appears to be almost an addiction and the NRA has been poking it's unwanted nose into the gun debate here. One senior Opposition MP has told them to "bugger off", which is reasonably polite for her. I've been noticing people here in NZ commenting on social media about Americans poking their snouts in and condemning NZ for banning guns etc., bending the knee to Islam and so on. Some of them are quite rabid. Funny thing is when Kiwis reply to them and get stuck into these rabid American gun nuts, showing them the error of their ways, giving them a taste of Kiwi, the American gun nuts start crying for mummy and claim hurt feelings etc. Them trolls don't like it up them