Saudi considers T-95 MBTs?

Izzy1

Banned Member
September 11th, 2006, 12:37
Saudi in talks with Russia over weapons sales: Diplomat
Saudi Arabia is in talks with Russia over the possible purchase of Russian weapons for the first time by the oil-rich kingdom, which has traditionally used Western defense systems, a Western diplomat said yesterday. Read More...

So far this year, Royal Saudi Land Forces has looked at Al Khalid, Le Clerc and now the T-95. My money is still on the Le Clerc.

Possibility of Saudi National Guard developing its own armoured formations. Thus it would not surprise me if the SANG bought a completely different system to the army.
 
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merocaine

New Member
The Saudi goverment is really divesifying its weapons procurement, This T95 manover looks like a ploy to drive down the price of the LeClerc.

You wonder what this arms build up is about? they are not threatened by any external enemies. America can do the job of external defence quite well.
My money is on the fear of internal revolt, which would make sense if there equiping the national guard with tanks.
 
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duplex

New Member
Why Leclerc?

Any particular reason why the Saudis are interested in Leclerc instead of Challenger 2? Leclerc is not combat proven!
 

.pt

New Member
Don´t know much about the Saudi internal situation, but i gather you mean, equiping the SANG with tanks to check the regular army armor?
.pt
 

merocaine

New Member
Don´t know much about the Saudi internal situation, but i gather you mean, equiping the SANG with tanks to check the regular army armor?
.pt
yeah possibly, but more just to park on street corners if there is a Islamic uprising.
Their procurment policy is a bit odd, considering there external situation.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
duplex said:
Any particular reason why the Saudis are interested in Leclerc instead of Challenger 2? Leclerc is not combat proven!
That's an argument for never buying anything new. "Don't buy these newfangled tank things - they aren't combat proven. Stick with horses!". I don't want to be rude, but it's a non-argument.
 

duplex

New Member
<<I don't want to be rude, >>

So don't !! I still can't figure out why they are interested in Leclerc?
Leclers came fourth and the last in an extensive MBT evaluation carrıed out two years ago by Turkish Armed Forces .

1-M1 Abrahms ( The best but not suitable ,extremely high fuel consumtion)
2-LEO 2
3-Challenger 2
4-Leclerc
 

jogi

New Member
Indications are that they might go for small numbers of AL-khalids and some other tanks. Alkhalids will be manned by Pakistani armoured brigade to be posted in Saudi Arabia, replacing american armour regiments. Already HIT-Taxila folks are talking about an order to the tune of 600 million $.


Izzy1 said:
September 11th, 2006, 12:37
Saudi in talks with Russia over weapons sales: Diplomat
Saudi Arabia is in talks with Russia over the possible purchase of Russian weapons for the first time by the oil-rich kingdom, which has traditionally used Western defense systems, a Western diplomat said yesterday. Read More...

So far this year, Royal Saudi Land Forces has looked at Al Khalid, Le Clerc and now the T-95. My money is still on the Le Clerc.

Possibility of Saudi National Guard developing its own armoured formations. Thus it would not surprise me if the SANG bought a completely different system to the army.
 

jogi

New Member
The real aim of these purchases are not defence. They have huge foreign reserves, and with it they keep americans , british and french at reasonable bay, or pay them back ( maintaining jobs in defence industry )or kick backs as well).

The recent purchase of Typhoons is an ample example of this. Just helping the euro defence industry.

French have been left out , so lets c.
 

merocaine

New Member
The real aim of these purchases are not defence. They have huge foreign reserves, and with it they keep americans , british and french at reasonable bay, or pay them back ( maintaining jobs in defence industry )or kick backs as well).

The recent purchase of Typhoons is an ample example of this. Just helping the euro defence industry.

French have been left out , so lets c.
What a mess! you'd think they'd spend the money on something there people actully need.

On the Le Clerc, the French have already supplied a tropicalised version to the UAE. Maybe this is part of the reason its being considered.

Its also one of the fastest and lightest around which probobly helps on sand.

So don't !! I still can't figure out why they are interested in Leclerc?
Leclers came fourth and the last in an extensive MBT evaluation carrıed out two years ago by Turkish Armed Forces .

1-M1 Abrahms ( The best but not suitable ,extremely high fuel consumtion)
2-LEO 2
3-Challenger 2
4-Leclerc
Turkey is not a 50 degree desert! what works for turkey doesent mean it will work for everyone.

What the hell is a T-95 anyway!? I thought it was just a development model anyway.
 

duplex

New Member
<Do you have sources for the tests in turkey?>


I had read it in Turkish Daily news in English but as I said was some two years ago.The race between M1 and Leo 2 was very very tight.

In the end ,Leo 2 was chosen, but the order hasn't been placed yet for 1000 MBT..At least I didn't hear anything about that yet.
 

fylr71

New Member
merocaine said:
What the hell is a T-95 anyway!? I thought it was just a development model anyway.
Good point. I believe T-95 was in competition with Black Eagle for Russia's next generation tank. Last I heard Black Eagle had won out because it is a major upgrade of the T-80 rather than a completely new design. It is kind of suprising that Russia is already looking at next generation tanks when they only have about 150 T-90s. As for the Saudis why begin purchasing T-95s when they already have M1A2s and could certainly get them upgraded to the M1A2 SEP? Doing that would be like France suddenly wanting to buy MIG-1.42:rolleyes:
 

Balin

New Member
merocaine said:
What the hell is a T-95 anyway!? I thought it was just a development model anyway.
MX-30 is 3,40 m toll, t72 is 2.19 m, t95 lower.

Even on my modification t172b1 I could easy shotdown any the best NATO tank. :el with uncomaparable price and relaibility.

I could agree thay not going to buy tanks it's a just price gambling
 

swerve

Super Moderator
fylr71 said:
As for the Saudis why begin purchasing T-95s when they already have M1A2s and could certainly get them upgraded to the M1A2 SEP? Doing that would be like France suddenly wanting to buy MIG-1.42:rolleyes:
No it wouldn't. France has its own combat aircraft. Saudi Arabia imports all its tanks, so it's a choice of foreign tank A or foreign tank B, not domestic vs foreign.

As has been said before, Saudi Arabia uses multiple suppliers both to reduce the risk of a cut-off of support, & to play off one against another to get better deals - by which I don't mean necessarily price, but, e.g., a class of weapon which the USA might refuse to sell if it was sole supplier. Like Taiwan buying Mirage 2000 & Mica when the USA refused to sell AIM-120.
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #18
Did they scrap plans for the Al-Khalid?

The RSLF has been quite vocal in opposing any Al Khalid procurement. The Ministry of Defence & Aviation however is still flirting with the idea and their introduction into the National Guard could be a possibility.

As for why they are interested in Le Clerc over Challenger 2, as Jogi says, its mainly down to politics more than anything else. A large Le Clerc order will placate a French Government that is still a bit sore about Saudi opting for Typhoon and not buying Rafale.

I've pasted below Jane's Armour and Artillery section on the T-95. Sounds like a radical change from previous Russian MBT.


MBTs AND MEDIUM TANKS, Russian Federation

Date Posted: 03-Mar-2006

Jane's Armour And Artillery

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T-95 MBT
Development
Description
Status
Contractor

Development TOP

In early 2000, the then Russian Defence Minister, Marshal Igor Sergeyev announced that a radically new Main Battle Tank (MBT) designated the T-95 had been developed in Russia.

Sergeyev made his statement after visiting defence industry facilities in Nizhnii Tagil and Yekaterinburg in the Ural region. During the visit to the Uralvagonzavod plant the Minister looked over a full-scale prototype of the new vehicle.

The fact that he named it T-95 suggests possible fielding of the new tank. It is known that such designations are given to operational vehicles such as the T-80 and T-90. Russian pilot and developmental vehicles are usually designated by the word 'Obiekt' with a number given to it.

As of early 2006, the T-95 MBT had not been seen in production and it probably still remains at the prototype stage.

Recent information has stated that the T-95 has the development designation of the Obiekt 775. Trials of the prototype vehicle started at the Kubinka proving ground outside of Moscow in the second half of 1998.

In the Description, the main armament is described as a 135 mm gun but some sources have also stated that it is armed with a 152 mm smoothbore gun fed by an automatic loader located below the turret. In addition to firing conventional natures of ammunition it can also fire missiles.

It is considered that the crew compartment is of the citadel-type with a high level of protection. The tank will also have a high level automated command and control system integrated into it and be fitted with a land navigation system as well as a diagnostic system.

Combat weight of the T-95 is now being quoted as 50 tonnes and it is powered by a 1,500 hp gas turbine or diesel coupled to an automatic transmission.

The design of the chassis will allow it to be used for a wide range of other applications.

Description TOP

Full technical data, outline and configuration features of the new T-95 MBT are not available. At the same time, a representative of Uralvagonzavod said the tank has a whole new design, rather than a modification of an existing vehicle.

It is claimed that the new T-95 MBT weighs 50 tons, its length and width would be likely about the same as the current T-72, T-80 and T-90 MBTs.

But the main feature of the new tank lies in its radically new configuration. Its gun is now mounted on a small, unmanned turret. A recently designed automatic loader, typical of the Russian MBTs, is located below the turret which first loads the projectile and then the charge.

The three-man crew consisting of driver mechanic, gunner and commander are seated in a special armoured capsule, separated by an armoured bulkhead from the automatic loader and turret with externally mounted main armament.

This design feature makes it possible not only to reduce the silhouette of the MBT and therefore make it less observable on the battlefield, but also considerably enhance crew safety and survivability. Combat experience has shown that one of the main weaknesses of Russian MBTs has been that when the hull is penetrated near the 125 mm automatic loader the ammunition often explodes, so blowing off the complete turret and destroying the whole vehicle.

It is believed that the T-95 MBT is armed with a 135 mm gun which is believed to be of the smoothbore type and is fitted with a new Fire-Control System (FCS).

Target information comes via optical, thermal imaging and IR channels. The FCS will also include a laser range-finder and possibly a radar. It is expected that it will feature a hunter/killer capability. In this role the target is first detected by the commander, who then hands over to the gunner to carry out the actual target engagement.

It should be noted that the new configuration places very strict demands to the FCS, as the crew is prevented from using traditional optical devices.

In the past one of the major weakness of Russian MBTs, when compared to their western counterparts, has been in the area of fire control and night vision optics and it is only recently that Russian MBTs have started to be fitted with thermal vision devices.

The new T-95 MBT is not the sole domestic new-generation MBT. In 1999, at the arms exposition in Omsk, Siberia, there was displayed the 'object 640' (named Black Eagle), developed at the Omsk-based Design Bureau of Transport Machine-building who also build the T-80.

Black Eagle also features a wholly new chassis and turret. Available details are given in a separate entry. Black Eagle retains a conventional turret with seats for the commander and gunner with the automatic loader and a part of the 125 mm ammunition load being placed in a spacious housing located in a rear part of turret.

Nizhnii Tagil is where the T-72 and T-90 MBTs are built with Omsk producing the T-80 MBT. Both facilities have been struggling to keep their research, development and production facilities alive against the background of reduced orders from the Russian Army and small export orders. The Omsk facility recently had a major boost when India ordered 310 of the export T-90S series MBTs early in 2001. The first of these were delivered late in 2001 and some will also be manufactured under licence in India.

It is known that OAO Spetsmash Design Bureau in St Petersburg has been working on a two-person MBT fitted with an externally mounted large calibre gun.

Status TOP

Prototype. No firm details of this have yet been released.

Contractor TOP


Uralvagonzavod (Nizhnii Tagil). UPDATED



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© 2006 Jane's Information Group
 

duplex

New Member
<<A large Le Clerc order will placate a French Government that is still a bit sore about Saudi opting for Typhoon and not buying Rafale>>


The Saudis are under no obligation to placate any French government under any circumstances. I believe that they will not order the Leclerc..
 

merocaine

New Member
<<A large Le Clerc order will placate a French Government that is still a bit sore about Saudi opting for Typhoon and not buying Rafale>>
Rubbish, the Leclerc is in use with the UAE, who seem quite happy with it, thats why the saudi's are considering it! Its a good desert tank plain and simple.

Has anyone bought the challanger 2?
 
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