Waseb Al-Qisuin
New Member
I guess he means Cyprus (Operation Attila), I think it is legit to say that this was a direct confrontation between Greece and Turkey.
Russia's Military Expansion
- Thread starter gazzzwp
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Waseb Al-Qisuin
New Member
The Iraqis say they were sure in 1990 that the US had nuclear tipped Pershings in SA.
From the Iraqi Perspectives Project Phase II. Um Al-Ma'arik (The Mother of All Battles): Operational and Strategic Insights from an Iraqi Perspective, Volume 1 pg211
"In a discussion recalling the planning considerations for the defense of Kuwait,
Commander of the Republican Guard at the time LTG al-Rawi stated:
We also called in the Chemical and Biological Weapons Commander and
requested that he give us a plan to defend against a nuclear and biological
attack. [A]s it turned out, the American forces had within their arsenal
[in Saudi Arabia] Pershing missiles which have nuclear warheads. We
studied these missiles and their effects carefully and decided on a wide
deployment."
I have this book called "The Iraqi Army, Organization and Tactics", according to it WMDs were an integral part of Iraqs Military waging war in all kinds of situations (obviously they had'nt to in the Invasion of Kuwait). Thats why I too cant make up another reason for not using WMDs than the US having tactical nuclear weapons in theater.
but this is all off Topic
That's not what he claimed. He said that Turkey 'waged war against Greece, another NATO member'. Turkey took military action against what was, in effect, a Greek military action in Cyprus (not part of NATO), but whatever the rights & wrongs of Turkish actions in Cyprus, it was the Greek army (which ran the Greek government at the time) which started it, by overthrowing the elected government of Cyprus (using local proxies supported by Greeks assigned to the Greek Cypriot army). Turkey did not attack Greece, & both sides were careful not to fight (they did a lot of posturing) along their land & maritime borders. Describing it as Turkey waging war against Greece is very misleading - even dishonest.
I remember it well, & followed the news avidly at the time. The most curious twist was that Greece was probably the chief beneficiary, because the abject failure of the (brutal & sometimes murderous) military dictatorship when it tried military adventurism caused it to fall, & Greek democracy was reinstated. A bit like the fall of the Argentinian junta in 1982 when it also tried a quick & pretty bloodless land grab & failed miserably, then collapsed as a result of its humiliation & democracy returned to the country.
Waseb Al-Qisuin
New Member
True, technically it could have become a war like the Falklands, but it didnt go as far as that and the greek army casualties may have been from turkish-cypriotic militia operations rather than the turkish army.
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There were Greek army troops integrated with the Greek Cypriot National Guard (one of them was a colleague of mine when I worked in Athens), & it had officers seconded from the Greek army. Those Greeks (some of who had led the coup) fought the Turks, both Turkish Cypriot units & regular Turkish units, so there were probably Greek army casualties from both.
But there's a significant difference between fighting Greeks who are in a non-NATO army, in a non-NATO country, & "waging war against Greece, another NATO member".
If Turkey had done what he said, Greece could have asked for NATO help. That would have been interesting. As it was, all of NATO agreed that it wasn't a NATO matter.
But there's a significant difference between fighting Greeks who are in a non-NATO army, in a non-NATO country, & "waging war against Greece, another NATO member".
If Turkey had done what he said, Greece could have asked for NATO help. That would have been interesting. As it was, all of NATO agreed that it wasn't a NATO matter.
Tsavo Lion
Banned Member
Thanks! And besides, the USA is famous for stating : " all options are on the table"!
I also remember that Turks briefly invaded Greek held island in the Aegean in '95/6. The US mediated their withdrawal.
Also, the Russia's Nortern Fleet is a de-facto Atlantic fleet- the Arctic Ocean is a Northern extension of the Atlantic & was used by USN SSNs & commersial vessels via NW Passage/NSR to transit from it to Pacific & vice versa. In fact, the Nortern Fleet surface ships & most subs deploy more often to Atlantic & Med. + sometimes to Red Sea & the Indian Ocean than to the East of the Barents Sea. Even after planned ice-strengthen combat ships enter service, they'll "go around the corner" just the same as before, if not more often.
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Tsavo Lion
Banned Member
Russia deploys newest anti-ship missiles to Kuril Islands, revives Soviet nuclear trains
Egypt will never forget friendship with USSR- a ground is prepared for a new Russian base/bases there! None of the above is surprising to me.
Egypt will never forget friendship with USSR- a ground is prepared for a new Russian base/bases there! None of the above is surprising to me.
Don't make it sound bigger than it was. The 'island' is one of a pair of uninhabited islets (rocks, really) with a total area of 4 hectares.
There is some confusion over their status because in the past, they weren't considered important. They're between the Turkish mainland & a group of islands which were ceded by Turkey to Italy in 1912, & then by Italy to Greece in 1948. Their status under the original cession was vague. Turkish officials recognised them as Italian between WW1 & WW2, but that recognition does not have the force of a treaty.
The incident was sparked by a Turkish merchant ship running aground, & refusing Greek assistance. A weak Turkish prime minister tried to make political capital out of the not quite certain status of the islets*, & the intervention of a group of Greeks who hoisted a Greek flag, followed by some Turkish TV journalists who landed & filmed themselves pulling down the Greek flag & raising their own, broadcast live, escalated it. There was no 'invasion': some marines were landed by both sides & glared at each other across the channel between the islets.
The USA spoke to both sides & after discussion via US diplomats both agreed (quite readily, apparently) to withdraw their troops & ships & return to the status quo ante.
*My feeling is that it's not definite, but the Greeks probably have the better claim.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Looks like the piss-ant rock between Baffin Island and Greenland that Denmark and Canada had a dispute about. Turf is import I guess, even if it is crap!Don't make it sound bigger than it was. The 'island' is one of a pair of uninhabited islets (rocks, really) with a total area of 4 hectares.
Yep but Canada and Denmark at least are very civilised about it leaving a bottle of their nations tipple for the other after each visit.Looks like the piss-ant rock between Baffin Island and Greenland that Denmark and Canada had a dispute about. Turf is import I guess, even if it is crap!
It's probably less about the islands and more about the territorial waters surrounding them.Don't make it sound bigger than it was. The 'island' is one of a pair of uninhabited islets (rocks, really) with a total area of 4 hectares.
There is some confusion over their status because in the past, they weren't considered important. They're between the Turkish mainland & a group of islands which were ceded by Turkey to Italy in 1912, & then by Italy to Greece in 1948. Their status under the original cession was vague. Turkish officials recognised them as Italian between WW1 & WW2, but that recognition does not have the force of a treaty.
The incident was sparked by a Turkish merchant ship running aground, & refusing Greek assistance. A weak Turkish prime minister tried to make political capital out of the not quite certain status of the islets*, & the intervention of a group of Greeks who hoisted a Greek flag, followed by some Turkish TV journalists who landed & filmed themselves pulling down the Greek flag & raising their own, broadcast live, escalated it. There was no 'invasion': some marines were landed by both sides & glared at each other across the channel between the islets.
The USA spoke to both sides & after discussion via US diplomats both agreed (quite readily, apparently) to withdraw their troops & ships & return to the status quo ante.
*My feeling is that it's not definite, but the Greeks probably have the better claim.
You forgot a little detail .... a military helicopter being shot down with the deaths of the crew. Because the turks landed special forces on the isle overnight.
Uncertain whether it was shot down or crashed.
Two islets, not 'the isle'. Both empty before the incident. Total area 4 hectares, mostly rock. Tiny & uninhabitable. Turks landed some men on one, Greeks on the other.
Just another one of the many stupid, pointless confrontations between Turkey & Greece. Sad that those men died.
Two islets, not 'the isle'. Both empty before the incident. Total area 4 hectares, mostly rock. Tiny & uninhabitable. Turks landed some men on one, Greeks on the other.
Just another one of the many stupid, pointless confrontations between Turkey & Greece. Sad that those men died.
No, it's just political posturing. Look at a map & it looks as if the territorial waters are too trivial to be worth such a confrontation. Whoever owns them, both countries have fairly clear navigation, & there's no suggestion of anything valuable under the sea.
Imia Rocks
These isles have been ceded from Italy to Greece as part of Dodekanhsos islands. The turks just follow their aggressive nationalistic foreign policies, taking advantage of the fact that these insignificant rocks are not specified by name in a treaty. They keep escalating ridiculous disputes for political reasons, as they are doing today, too.
Not only does Greece have a clear claim to the isles but the turks opened fire on the helicopter. This was conceiled from the public to preserve stability but I think we can talk realistically in this forum and not insult each other's intelligence by talking about a crash in a situation like this.
These isles have been ceded from Italy to Greece as part of Dodekanhsos islands. The turks just follow their aggressive nationalistic foreign policies, taking advantage of the fact that these insignificant rocks are not specified by name in a treaty. They keep escalating ridiculous disputes for political reasons, as they are doing today, too.
Not only does Greece have a clear claim to the isles but the turks opened fire on the helicopter. This was conceiled from the public to preserve stability but I think we can talk realistically in this forum and not insult each other's intelligence by talking about a crash in a situation like this.
Tsavo Lion
Banned Member
Only for the sake of the argument that among countries in Europe, not only Russia used/uses its military in Europe. Pl. see 3 pgs. back.