Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

[gf0012-aust]

The more I re-read that article the more I see that the author has just not understood carrier ops.

It sounds impressive on stats, but he makes some fundamental mistakes and assumptions which infect his analysis - especially his assumptions on availability rates and assoc issues

 

[Tsavo Lion]

Pl. contact the author about it! "..treat the carrier as a joint system in its own right - its is then part of a task force which is another version of a joint system.."- Exactly right! For the most part, the RFN, IN, & PLAN carriers will work in pairs or triples and/or in conjunction with land-based aviation, etc, so their individual sub parity with USN CVNs (which, btw, also do the same in crises) isn't going to be hugely detrimental to their overall utility. I look at every issue holistically, not for the sake of trolling.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Pl. contact the author about it! "..treat the carrier as a joint system in its own right - its is then part of a task force which is another version of a joint system.."- Right! For the most part, the RFN, IN, & PLAN carriers will work in pairs or triples and/or in conjunction with land-based aviation, etc, so their individual sub parity with USN CVNs (which, btw, also do the same in crises) isn't going to be hugely detrimental to their overall utility. I look at every issue holistically, not for the sake of trolling.

where is the CONOPS for RFN or IN or PLAN for that matter that supports this? It doesn't exist.

The Russians and Chinese have never done this - ever - The Indian Navy did when it was based on the RN model and when it ran catobar.

The Indian Navy carriers are going to be based as flags for their 4 main fleet headquarters

Nothing you state is supported by historical facts - and by current CONOPs

The Americans are the only ones who have surged mutiple TF into a super task force - and that was a couple of years ago to demonstrate how quickly they could pull 4 task forces together.

Russia, China, India, have never ever done it - they are all regional continental powers which have defined how the forces have developed.

The only other navies to surge multiple carriers into a super group has been the Japanese and the RN - and in a timeframe that lacks a bit of relevance considering the capability mix of todays fleets

I have no idea who's feeding you this information - but its fundamentally and factually incorrect. The prev authors article is deficient as he is selective in how he presents his stats.

 

[gf0012-aust]

anyway, I'm done with this, you obviously consider yourself more knowledgeable, so I'll leave you with your views on this intact

I've tried explaining in factual terms, its up to you to learn.

 

[Tsavo Lion]

They r still developing their CONOPS & I've read on that a few years back regarding the RFN & PLAN; unlike Russia, India & PRC can move assets more quickly to reinforce their fleets if need be. If only CATOBAR makes them more USN- like, so be it. I asked a few posts back, which Indian Navy carrier was CATOBAR?

 

[ngatimozart]

They r still developing their CONOPS & I've read on that a few years back regarding the RFN & PLAN; unlike Russia, India & PRC can move assets more quickly to reinforce their fleets if need be. If only CATOBAR makes them more USN- like, so be it. I asked a few posts back, which Indian Navy carrier was CATOBAR?

Cobber don't push it. You are getting beyond polite discussions and when a senior member and Super Moderator is losing patience and starts to query whether or not you are a troll, it is time to very quickly back off. I strongly suggest that you use Mr Google and do some research and that you dial back your attitude. If I can find the answer in a couple of minutes I am sure that you can.

 

[swerve]

I asked a few posts back, which Indian Navy carrier was CATOBAR?

Why do you need to ask about information that's all over the web & found in seconds by typing a few words into the search engine of your choice?
INS Vikrant R11

 

[Tsavo Lion]

I did see so, found it but missed about the words "Catapult Assisted Take-Off" & as a result wasn't sure. I wonder, why the Indians scrapped Clemenceau instead of refitting & inducting her? Her sister is still sailoring on for Brasil!

 

[Vulcan]

There's a point where you cut your losses, Sao Paulo doesn't provide a seriously useful capability to Brazil due to her age and regularly suffers maintenance issues despite a fairly recent and reportedly extensive overhaul.

It's a prestige project to maintain some type of carrier trained cadre of pilots, nothing more. The focus for Brazil is on their new sub and frigate programs.

 

[gf0012-aust]

There's a point where you cut your losses, Sao Paulo doesn't provide a seriously useful capability to Brazil due to her age and regularly suffers maintenance issues despite a fairly recent and reportedly extensive overhaul.

It's a prestige project to maintain some type of carrier trained cadre of pilots, nothing more. The focus for Brazil is on their new sub and frigate programs.

Not sure anyone should be taking the Wiki entry for Sao Paulo as factual - it has basic errors of fact.

then there are the not so small issues of catapult limitations that would have resulted on larger aircraft - and the defence export constraints around the catapult tech in service on that platform as opposed to what technically was available - and not necessarily available under FMS

In short, the Indians could not have upgraded the carrier to their needs anyway

 

[Tsavo Lion]

.. the defence export constraints around the catapult tech in service on that platform ..

What r they? Pl. elaborate on that.
Russia readies two of its most advanced submarines for launch in 2017.
It is planned that the Delta IV class subs will remain operational until at least 2030. 13 more years! I wonder if it'll actually happen. But if they r so good, it's possible this class could be kept even longer.

 

[ngatimozart]

What r they? Pl. elaborate on that.
Russia readies two of its most advanced submarines for launch in 2017.
It is planned that the Delta IV class subs will remain operational until at least 2030. 13 more years! I wonder if it'll actually happen. But if they r so good, it's possible this class could be kept even longer.

Do some research into Indias alignment at the time. That will tell you why there were restrictions.

 

[Tsavo Lion]

Перед самым выходом российских кораблей к берегам Сирии Северный флот показательно провел учения, в ходе которых атомная подводная лодка проекта 949 «Антей» поразила «Гранитами» еще и несколько наземных целей.

Transl.: Just before sailing to the coast of Syria, the Northern Fleet conducted exercises during which nuclear submarine Project 949 "Antey" [Oskar SSGN] struck with "Granite" a few more ground targets. - So, will they keep & expend them in that role even after they r replaced in anti-ship role with newer missiles?

 

[Feanor]

Transl.: Just before sailing to the coast of Syria, the Northern Fleet conducted exercises during which nuclear submarine Project 949 "Antey" [Oskar SSGN] struck with "Granite" a few more ground targets. - So, will they keep & expend them in that role even after they r replaced in anti-ship role with newer missiles?

Apparently the 949AM project puts 3 Kalibr tubes inside the existing space for Granit missiles. So after upgrade each Antey will carry 72 cells for Kalibr/Onyx.

 

[Tsavo Lion]

I expected this development-the Oskar SSGNs can now also strike land targets- it makes them a force multiplier. They now have 8 active(some undergoing modernization), so if all get those LACMs, 8 x72 each'll carry=up to 576 extra missiles to project power ashore!

 

[Feanor]

I expected this development-the Oskar SSGNs can now also strike land targets- it makes them a force multiplier. They now have 8 active(some undergoing modernization), so if all get those LACMs, 8 x72 each'll carry=up to 576 extra missiles to project power ashore!

Not with the sorry state of VMF ship maintenance facilities. Unless something changes, they'll be lucky to have 4 subs available at any one time.

 

[Tsavo Lion]

Still, with just 3 Oscars, it's 216 missiles total, 1/2 of them, if not more, can be LACM, which = 108. For comparison, in the Syrian campaign

115 cruise missiles were launched during the operations, both from the Russian navy's warships and submarines, as well as from strategic bombers and missile carriers.

 

[Feanor]

Still, with just 3 Oscars, it's 216 missiles total, 1/2 of them, if not more, can be LACM, which = 108. For comparison, in the Syrian campaign

Just so we're clear, the 885s are going to be online in numbers before the 949AMs. So there will be plenty of cruise missile carriers between that, the kilos, the frigates, the small missile ships both 21631s and 22800s.If they had better maintenance for nuke subs they could make due with one type. 12 project 885s, 6 per fleet would do it, if they could maintain 50% readiness.

 

[Haavarla]

Just so we're clear, the 885s are going to be online in numbers before the 949AMs. So there will be plenty of cruise missile carriers between that, the kilos, the frigates, the small missile ships both 21631s and 22800s.If they had better maintenance for nuke subs they could make due with one type. 12 project 885s, 6 per fleet would do it, if they could maintain 50% readiness.

Its pretty clear the Russians are struggling with readiness on various older navy units. I wonder if their main problem is to facilitate and train enough qualified personel?

Just as we are clear, here in Norway we bought 5 new frigates. got the last in mid 00 decade. We have never been able to operate more than two of them at any given time. Barely Two is operative at all times, third is a school navy ship for training, thus is not equipped with all systems. The last two fregates is kanibalisert for spare parts.

All in all, that is well under 50% of our mighty fregate fleet sailing at any given time.
Our main problem has allways been lack of funding(thus personel). As many defence DoD love to do, is making requirements, order big new toys. But has failed to tell our Goverment just how expensive it is to service them

 

[Tsavo Lion]

I thought that under Putin the navy is supposed to be a lot better maintained than under Yeltsin! Have there been any improvements at all? I can't believe that most investment is done in the new construction. Meanwhile, Adm.K group to return from Med.Sea this month, and
RFN Could Deploy Into The Arctic- it'll probably happen in the spring/summer. They are also increasing presence in the SC Sea and plan to conduct more ex. with ASEAN members: RFN Vessels Arrive In Philippines For Maritime Drills Russia flags war games with US ally Philippines