Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

A new combat module is being showcaed on the BTR chassis. So far this is only a contender for possibly further BTR-82 development. The module was previously shown on the BTR-82AT variant at Army-2020.


An interesting infographic was released recently showing current and future developments in Russian artillery and missile tech. On the upper left you can see a future standardized cruise missile and AShM. Essentially a Bastion-P and Iskander-M on a single chassis. On the bottom left you can see the Coalitsiya family including the tracked, wheeled variants, and the loading vehicle. Down the middle is the current Iskander-M, Msta-SM, artillery command post, Kornet-D, Smerch/Tornado-S, and an unspecific UAV. On the right are next gen MLRS, one 300mm with no name, one Cyclone-G (the 300mm is likely called Cyclone-S) both on the same chassis. Both involve package-loading of munitions and drastically extended range (70kms and 300kms respectively). The 300mm version also apparently carries a seeker-head. Below that is OKR Baikal, a next-generation top-attack ATGM.

Obviously the future projects are hypotheticals, but they seem to be at the OKR stage.


The first unit equipped with Uran combat robots is planned. This is just a test unit, and experimental use of the systems so far was reportedly unimpressive.


The 64th Motor-Rifles has taken delivery of a btln of T-80BVM tanks. The MoD statement claims the tanks are carrying Arena-M APS which doesn't appear to be the case based on the photos. It's possible a small number of tanks are equipped with it for testing purposes but it could also be a mistake.


A automated fire control system for towed guns is being developed. It's essentially an adaptation of the system currently used on 2S19M1 and M2 SP howitzers. It seems that initially the plan was to ditch towed guns completely in favor of purely self-propelled solutions, at least for units using heavy howitzers (152mm). Which is why we've seen such a concentrated effort on upgrading the existing fleet of 2S19s and purchase of new 2S19M2s. However I suspect they discovered that this isn't doable for budgetary reasons. Hence projects like the 2S43 Mal'va (a Msta howtizers on a BAZ truck chassis) and now this, an upgrade program for towed guns.


Further BMP-3 upgrades are in the works with a panoramic commanders sight, and a new engine. Of course the statement also claims that BMP-3s are currently being delivered with extra armor kits, and I have yet to see any of that in line units... it's possible that the upgraded engine is needed to maintain mobility with the increases in weight.


40 BMP-3s are arriving in Vladivostok for the 155th Marine Bde. Prior to this I didn't even know the unit had BMPs, I thought the 155th was all BTRs. It's also unclear whether these are BMP-3F (as the source claims) or just BMP-3. None of the usual indicators of BMP-3F are present.


A new Magistr-SV control system for ground forces air defense is planned and it's going to use purely electro-optical means, no radar. As things stand future Russian PVO-SV will have one btln per brigade run purely EO, and another radar. The EO btln will have one battery on 2S38 guns, one on Sosna-R missiles, and one on MANPADS. The intent seems to be to have a minimal-emissions air defense for ground forces.


Some interesting footage has surfaced of OKR Burlak. Just a reminder, OKR Burlak is the competitor to OKR Proryv. OKR Proryv is the turret design that eventually became the T-90M. Burlak was a competing and far more ambitious project, featuring a dual-feed autoloader, Relikt ERA, and allegedly a new APS possibly based on the Drozd-2. The second link has a decent photo where you can make out some of the details.

 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
So that might explain why the Burlak has this ridiculous looking sloped armor - to avoid interfering with the APS which launches projectiles from the back through the center line of the turret.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
New things from Victory Day parades across multiple locations.

This is the first time I'm seeing this Tornado-U variant. It's an MRAP truck with a protected cabin but an open bed. In the image they're towing Syrian M-46 guns. It's the Victory Day Parade at Khmeimeem.


The 7th Motor-Rifles Rgt, part of the 11th Army Corps in Kaliningrad has taken delivery of a btln set of BMP-3s. Notable are the strange bumps on the vehicle's sides. They may be the mounts for cage armor.


BMD-2Ms with the Bereg module have been sighted in the Tula Victory Day Parade. It's a new FCS, and a pair of Kornet ATGMs on the turret.


Also in Tula we have the new PRP-5 artillery command point. There's one on a BMP-3 chassis and one on the BTR-82A chassis. This is the result of OKR Mars-2000.


Also in Tula, a look at Russian special operations forces. This is not SpN GRU, but SSO, a different structure created under Serdyukov and very rarely seen.


At Nizhniy Novgorod we have a whole arrangement of interesting artillery systems, some seen before, some not. We have the 2B24 mortar on an ATV. The 2S41 Drok SP mortar on a Kamaz Tayfun 4X4 MRAP, a Vystrel armored car with a new turret (30mm autocannon and 30mm AGS), the 2S40 Floks 120mm gun-mortar combined system on a truck chassis, and the 2S43 Mal'va, a Msta howitzer on a BAZ truck chassis


Khabarovsk has units in Arctic camo, with new T-80BVM tanks, BTR-82A APCs, and an apparently unarmored Aleut tracked vehicle.


Also from Khabarovsk a BMP-2 with new anti-IED jammers and a mine trawl, but otherwise a basic BMP-2.


There are two new CBRN recon vehicles, one on a Tigr-M chassis, one on a unique Kamaz Tayfun MRAP chassis that isn't the same as the standard Tayfun-K. It's an interesting looking vehicle, and if the Land Forces weren't married to requirements of amphibiousness, it could likely be a new APC.


A look at the new Kurganets IFVs with the true Epokha turret, carrying the 57mm low-velocity LShO-57 autocannon, 2X2 Kornets, and a 7-pack of smaller Bulat missiles in a rack that extends from the inside of the turret. Presumably the idea is to use them against lightly armored or unarmored targets that aren't worth a heavy ATGM like Kornet.


In Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk (on Sakhalin island) we have an upgraded Val assault rifle with new optics and a broom-stick.


Unrelated to Victory Day.

3 new BMD based vehicles have been shown, one is the previously-mentioned ATGM carrier using Kornet-D1s on a BMD chassis, another is an artillery command vehicle, likely the one carrying the large radar (combining a counter-battery radar and a command post on a single vehicle). The last is a regular command vehicle for the VDV.


The 218th Motor-Rifles in Crimea has formed two new regiments, the 275th and 280th.


The 4th armored is slated for re-arming it's Motor-Rifle regiment from BTR-80s to BTR-82As. The motor-rifle btlns of the two tank regiments are getting BMP-3s. There is also information that the 42nd Motor-Rifles has also taken 20+ BMP-3s.


The 20th Motor-Rifles is being converted from a brigade to a regiment. It's unclear which, if any, other units will be folded into it.


Some footage of the new Lancet-3 loitering munition.


A close look at the new Tornado-S guided missile.


A medical MRAP on the Tayfun-K 4X4 chassis in Syria.


A batch of 2S3M howitzers have been delivered to the armed forces after an overhaul.

 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

This is quite big claim for 100km range for Izdeliye 305 missile. Previous claim is for 30km + range for 305 / Hermes ATGM missile.
@Feanor is there any other sources that can collaborate 100km range for Izdeliye 305 missile? Most other sources I can find talk about 30km range. Which's quite impressive already for ATGM base type missile.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member

This is quite big claim for 100km range for Izdeliye 305 missile. Previous claim is for 30km + range for 305 / Hermes ATGM missile.
@Feanor is there any other sources that can collaborate 100km range for Izdeliye 305 missile? Most other sources I can find talk about 30km range. Which's quite impressive already for ATGM base type missile.
It's an interesting question. There are some sources talking about 15, 18, and 25 km ranges, and a long-range 100km version gets mentioned quite a few times. The sources are not the most reliable, but it seems likely that a longer-range version is at least possible. I'm also not sure if the 100km range version is still an ATGM or even a light GM in the normal sense of the word. It's entirely possible that we're talking about a longer-range, larger missile, using most of the same tech, possible the short-range version as a second-stage.

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Quick follow up, here's a fresh article claiming the 100km range and that a Mi-28NM will carry up to 4 missiles of the type. An Apache can carry what 16 Hellfires? Even if we allow some discrepancy in payload, the izd. 305 is clearly a much larger/heavier missile.

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

It looks like the BMPTs are going to West MD but there's no confirmation on additional purchases. This might just be a rebasing of the same batch.


UVZ has begun work on constructing the Shturm robot. This is a T-72 based unmanned version of the urban assault tank that was proposed on the Armata chassis. It's supposed to carry a short-barreled gun but still 125mm. It's supposed to be based on the T-72B3, so likely the B3M variant, with better all-aspect protection. Variants with rocket pods, and 30mm autocannons are also being considered (essentially a reanimation of the ChTZ BMPT concept).


Khrizantema SP ATGM carriers are expected next in the Tamanskaya Motor-Rifles. With units transitioning back to the divisional structure instead of 1 anti-tank SP ATGM btlns for each 3 Motor-Rifle btlns, it now appears to be 1 for each 9 (unless they have an AT battery in each regiment). This means re-armament and retirement of Soviet Shturm-S systems is now at least possible.


One of the Motor-Rifle Regiments in Kaliningrad has taken over 80 BMP-3s. Prior to this the Marine Bde there took a btln set. This is probably a complete armament set for one of the regiments there.

We also have confirmation that the BMP-3s purchased have extra-armor kits. A total of 168 BMP-3s planned for purchased with protection kits, and another separate purchase of 82 armor kits for BMP-3s and 64 for BMP-2s. It's unclear whether the 168 BMP-3s come with kits, or are merely able to carry the kits. And the number of kits, 82, looks awfully like the "over 80" BMP-3s that the M-R Rgt got. On the other hand I haven't see any BMP-2s with extra-armor kits or suspicious looking bumps.


2S3M howitzers have been handed over after overhauls. The 2S3M is a relatively modern 2S3 upgrade done side by side with the 2S19M1 upgrade as part of GPV-2020. The program is effectively over, not because all of them have been upgraded but because it looks like the rocket and artillery forces are focusing on the newer 2S19M2s. However the total number of 2S3s in service is very large, and it will be some time before they are all phased out.

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

There's an interesting video which prominently features the new Arctic APC/IFV based on a tracked articulated chassis developed under OKR Rytsar. Interestingly enough it doesn't appear to be based on the DT-30. There's also some interesting footage of the T-14, and some other vehicles.


East MD is taking delivery of some of the first new Tayfun MRAPs meant for MANPADS teams. Additionally 56 new battlefield ambulances based on the same MRAP, under OKR Linza, and 11 airdropable MRAPs with 30mm autocannons in unmanned turrets for the VDV, under OKR Naparnik, are also scheduled for delivery. It looks like MRAPs will be far more common moving forward.


It appears that work is continuing on an upgraded MT-LB variant. It's not clear why, since almost all MT-LB based systems currently have replacements on other chassis (Strela-10 becomes Sosna on the BMP-3 and BTR chassis, Shturm becomes Khrizantema on the BMP-3, the 2S1 is just getting phased out for 152mm). Perhaps they're concerned they can't phase them out quickly enough, still it's unclear that the costs of the upgrade are worth the performance gains for something that's slated for retirement soon anyway.


Some up-gunned BTR-82As and BMP-3s with extra AGS-17s, and ATGMs.


There's an interesting looking new T-72B3M variant with a "sunroof", allegedly meant to protect against top-attack munitions. Given that an APS for the T-72/T-90 family is in the works, to me it would make more sense to build in top protection into the APS, rather then attaching this complex contraption. On the other hand, assuming this thing works, it's certainly cheap and relatively easy to install. I.e. if Russia were to go to war with Ukraine next month, these could be plausibly installed on many vehicles.

Different photos and videos on the various links in case you're trying to get a close look.


BMP-3 based command vehicles for ATGM btlns have been spotted in recent training exercises.


Land Forces have received another batch of T-90Ms, likely for the 27th Motor-Rifles.


The 10th BMD-4M and BTR-MDM btln has been handed over to the VDV. It went to a regiment of the 7th VDV.


Another look at prospective artillery systems for Land Forces and VDV, including the Arctic Magnolia, the Drok SP 82mm mortar, the VDV Lotos, the 120mm gun-mortar Floks, and the 2S34 Malva. Personally I really wonder why they bothered with the Mal'va. Current production of the Msta-SM doesn't seem to have any problems. If they really want more upgraded legacy SP Arty, why not order more of them? And the Koalitsiya is just around the corner. It could be that they decided they can't afford to replace all towed guns with SP tracked guns.


Another batch of 2S19M2s has been handed over to the armed forces.


Another batch of BTR-82AMs is going into service.


TOS-2 thermobaric MLRS are suppose to complete state trials this year.


A shot of 30mm rounds for the 2A42 and 2A72 autcannons including a new kinetic penetrator.


EDIT: The articulated AFV shown is apparently the product not of OKR Rytsar for an Arctic IFV but instead OKR Arktika, and meant to be an APC. It's index is DT-BTR.

 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

BMP-2M deliveries are continuing. A total of 124 are contracted, that's 4 btlns worth of.


Deliveries have also begun of the BTR-82AT. This is a new variant of the BTR-82A that has thermals, and improved protection both in the form of extra armor panels and cage armor. The 19th Motor-Rifles in South MD are due to receive the vehicle, and they recently had their 503rd Motor-Rifle Rgt take delivery of some BTR-82As. It's possible those were actually ATs.


There is information that a new tracked SP mortar is being developed. It's unclear why the 2S31 Vena, or 2S34 Hosta are not being procured.


A new Ural 4X4 truck with an armored cabin presented at Army-2021.


State trials of the Bumerang wheeled platform have begun. It's unclear when we can expect to see the type in service. It's likely the least developed of the three platforms.


Another look at the T-16ARV. It's part of OKR Armata.


There's some interesting photos of the 201st Military Base vehicles with improved armor. This appears to be a local upgrade in anticipation of a potential flare-up with the Taliban.


A new HE-FRAG variants of the barrel-launched ATGM has been developed.


26 more T-90Ms were delivered, probably to the 27th motor-rifles. This is a curious number because the number previously delivered was 8 making for 34 total. That's a btln of 31, and a training group of 3, demonstrating that training vehicles are being built into the deliveries for even new tank types.

Allegedly a total of 65 T-90Ms are planned for this year, and the first 20 T-14s too though I'm not holding my breath on the last one.


A batch of T-80BVM tanks have been handed over. Relatively few T-80 btlns remain in service.


A new missile brigade has been formed (47th), and a new set of Iskander missiles have been procured for it. Also a new artillery brigade (the 238th), using Msta-B towed guns and BM-27 Uragan MLRS.


Deliveries of DT-10P off-road vehicles are continuing to the land forces.


Some footage of the new ISDM which is essentially an MLRS mine-layer, on recent exercises. Why the type can't be standardized with the main 122mm MLRS for the ground forces is beyond me.


Interesting footage of the new SP ATGM and command vehicle for the VDV. It's a Kornet-D1 setup on the BMD-4M chassis. Presumably the vehicle with only 4 ATGMs is the command version, while the one with 8 is the regular line unit.


The 11th BMD-4M btln has been handed over.


Some interesting looking T-72As were seen at recent exercises in Center MD, with K-1 armor in a new pattern. This appears to be a recent development and it's unclear why this is being done. Up until now I was under the impression that the T-72As that occasionally appear are being used for driver training, but upgrading them with K-1 tiles doesn't make sense if that's the case. However it also makes no sense to reactivate the type for line units since the total T-72 inventory in storage should be more then sufficient for the entire current ORBAT and that's not considering the T-80s and T-90s in service (and there are plenty of T-80BVs in storage too).


Some photos of the new roof cage armor recently seen on T-72s. It's possible the appearance of this is an echo of the escalation in Ukraine from last spring, when Russian tanks had a real change of facing Ukrainian Javelins.


In a recent interview one of the Arena APS developers claimed that it can defend against top-attack munitions. It's unclear whether he's referring to the version currently being tested by the MoD or an option being offered by the developer.


A delivery of Tornado-U trucks has taken place to a unit in Tyva, likely the motor-rifle brigade located there.

 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

Some interesting footage from the 38th NII trial polygon. We can see the T-72B3M with the Arena-M APS, and the Nakidka thermal shroud, we can see a new C&C vehicle based on the T-15, and it has an interesting double-layered ERA arrangement. You can also see the 2S42 swimming, and the T-14 rotating on the spot.


Some more shots of the T-72B3 with the Arena-M APS.


Here's another photo of the MT-LB/ZU-23-2 AAA from presumably the 27th Motor-Rifles. Note the new turret. It's not clear why the type is in service. Presumably enough ZSU-23-4s should be in storage. And the 2S6M can still be produced.


The 3rd para-drop regiment in the 76th VDV has been formed, the 237th.


Some BTR-82ATs at West-2021.


Also seen at West-2021 is a rare T-80UD with Drozd-2 APS, and a rare T-80UK with Shtora-APS.


The 19th and 20th Motor-Rifle divisions are set to be armed with T-90Ms. And apparently each division will get a 5-company tank btln. It's likely that they will have 3 rgts of Motor-Rifles, and an extra-strength tank btln in place of a tank rgt. The 20th Motor-Rifle Div. is being formed on the basis of the 20th Motor-Rifles Bde.


A new aerosol system meant to protect ground vehicles from top-attack munitions has been demonstrated. Its effectiveness is unclear.


The TOS-1A is getting upgraded with comms and navigation systems during their overhaul.


A new ARV on the DT-10 Arctic transport has been spotted, allegedly going by the name REM-GT. The type is already being used as a transport vehicle, and a chassis for Tor-M2 and Pantsyr systems for the Arctic. A 120mm gun-mortar system, and a Tornado-G MLRS variant are also in the works.


A heavier and more rapid-firing version of the Koalitsiya howitzer is being developed on the Armata chassis. They're also going to reconsider the double-barreled version.


Zemledelie-I mine-laying MLRS have been spotted at West-2021.


Another look at the B-19 vehicle from West-2021. Please note this designation is from GABTU. Similar designations for other variants of potential IFV upgrades are as follows;

B-10 Kurganets-25 BTR-G APC variant
B-11 Kurganets-25 IFV (likely with the Bumerang-BM module)
B-12 Kurganets-25 ARV
B-14 Kurganets-25 IFV with the Kinzhal module (high-velocity 57mm gun)
B-15 Kurganets-25 IFV with the Epoha module (57mm low-velocity LShO, and Bulat light GMs)
B-16 BMP-2 with the Kinzhal module
B-17 BMP-3 with the Kinzhal module
B-18 BMP-2 with the Epoha module
B-19 BMP-3 with the Epohamodule
B-22 BMP-2 with the Berezhok module (BMP-2M)
B-23 BMD-2 with the Bereg module


Footage from West-2021 exercises showing off Uran-9 unmanned fire support vehicles.


General footage from West-2021.


Work is continuing on a new reserve system for the Russian armed forces. Details are scarce but it's going by the name BARS, and it involves reservists (anyone who served and demobbed but is of mobilization age) signing a contract, being attached to a specific army unit, and attending regular training there. Use of reservists as a mobilization exercise in large scale exercises has been ongoing since 2016 but so far it's the old Soviet system surviving to this day (save the two contract reservist motor-rifle brigades, one in West MD and one in Center).


Some T-72Bs (not B3s) with the roof-protection kit (1st link). Earlier a simplified version of the kit, lacking the "peak" was spotted (2nd link).


Another shot of a more flushed out version of the roof-protection kit with some sort of cloth covering.


A rare T-90AK with the same roof protection.


T-72B3Ms are destined for the 201st Military Base in Tadjikistan. Until now it was the only unit to be confirmed operating T-72As (AVs to be precise). It seems one btln in the base has already been re-armed an the second is getting new tanks before the end of the year.


Tigr armored cars, with K-1 ERA tiles. It's unclear how viable this upgrade is. They do appear to be mounted on an additional layer of armor.


Russian armed forces are going to test the T-90M variant with the extension mast featuring an EO device and laser range-finder in training exercises.


The BMR-3 was recently spotted near Khabarovsk, suggesting that deliveries of the type are continuing.


The 6th Tank Bde may have taken delivery of BMPTs. It's unclear whether they're transferred from the 90th Tank Div or new vehicles.


A new truck variant of the Tayfun-VDV MRAP, called the AMN-D.


The first batch of the 2S41 Drok SP 81mm mortars have been delivered to the troops.


A contract has been signed for the Shturm unmanned combat vehicle. A short-barreled T-72, with extra ERA, meant for urban warfare. Contracts have also been signed for the T-90M both upgrades and new-builds, 2S35 howitzers, TOS-2 heavy flamethrowers, Linza medical MRAPs, and a number of aerial and naval systems.


Some footage of Krasnopol guided artillery shells at recent exercises.


A new MRAP variant being marketed to the SpetNaz or recon units.


A BMP-3M with a Berezhok combat module. Note the mounts on the hull for the extra armor package.


The first T-14 batch has been shipped to line units, according to some the 27th MRBde.


A new combat engineers vehicle.


Some footage of the Tayfun-K RKhM-9, a new NBC recon vehicle. Instead of using the normal Tayfun-K 6X6, this uses the single-piece variant that was proposed by Kamaz.


Footage of the TOS-2 firing.


BT-3F production is planned for the end of 2021, presumably for Indonesia.

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update time.

The 201st MilBase continues to show off it's uparmored vehicles.


The T-14 is planned for inclusion in GPV-2033 (2024-2033). Quantities are unknown and will be determined in 2023. This comes as completion of state trials is pushed into 2022.


Another batch of 2S19M2s have been delivered. These are newly built upgraded howitzers.


A strange upgrade is in the works for the 2S4 super-heavy mortars. The proposal is to switch the chassis to an armored truck. It's not clear whether this will involve existing mortars or new-builds.


The Baltic fleet took another batch of T-72B3Ms.


And it looks like the ground forces are getting their own Pantsyr variant, the Pantsyr-SM-SV. It's listed along side a new MRAP transport for MANPADS teams, and the Derivatsiya 57mm AAA. It's exact place in the ORBAT is unclear since it would theoretically replace the Derivatsiya's role. It's possible the plan is to pair the type with Buk-M3s and S-300V4s the same way the VKS does with their S-400s. Personally I'm hoping it ends up as part of line Motor-Rifle and Tank units.


The Uran-9 fire-support UGV is planned for trial exploitation in 2022, and is expected to enter service soon.

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member

BMPT deliveries in December.
I really hope these aren't the 5-man BMPTs.
They are. They're a mix of the original 5-man version, with the newer version in terms of combat module (armored containers for the ATGMs. I honestly think this is a case of lobbying. These vehicles have no good place in the TO&E, and in their present form they're problematic (heavily protected chassis, tall combat module with minimal protection) to use.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Quick update, some footage from a recent visit to UVZ shows off the T-14 without it's turret cover. It unfortunately doesn't answer the question of protection levels.

 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Quick update, some footage from a recent visit to UVZ shows off the T-14 without it's turret cover. It unfortunately doesn't answer the question of protection levels.

What question is there on protection levels? The first pic shows the frontal armor module - clearly designed for more common threats. The T-14's turret is not armored because it does not need any armor beyond the basics. Otherwise it's just dead weight.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
What question is there on protection levels? The first pic shows the frontal armor module - clearly designed for more common threats. The T-14's turret is not armored because it does not need any armor beyond the basics. Otherwise it's just dead weight.
The original OKR Molot envisioned a turret-less gun mount to reduce silhouette. Here's the interesting part, the gun mechanisms were actually supposed to be protected at or near MBT levels. With the T-14 photos without the turret cover we can see a smaller "true" turret underneath, with a bunch of external mechanisms mounted around it. So what about that actual box around the gun? Is it armored? How well? Look at the photos below from the other side of the turret. It looks like there's an armored plate around the gun mask, facing forward. You can also see the ejection port in the side of the turret. In the full turret that side ejection port is sunk seep into the turret body, but with the outer cover removed we can see that it's actually more or less flush to the side of the "true" turret inside. Again, how well armored are those sides? You could be right and it's just that front armor module. On the other hand no armor on the sides of the gun mechanism means that a low-caliber autocannon or any RPG can get a mission kill with a single side-shot. Given the recent priorities in Russian tank upgrades (ERA and cage armor around the sides and rear of the turret) this is hard to believe. I suspect there is some protection, but how much remains an open question. Also; just how large is that front armor plate around the gun? How much of the turret's mechanisms are behind it?


EDIT: While we're at it Khlopotov is suggesting that the hull of the T-14 has seen further modifications to reduce weight.

 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Russians maybe many things, but when it come to armoured warfare they aren't stupid. They won't leave the main gun unprotected. Other things maybe, but never the main gun.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
The Russians maybe many things, but when it come to armoured warfare they aren't stupid. They won't leave the main gun unprotected. Other things maybe, but never the main gun.
The main gun is not un-protected. The turret is so stripped down of components and empty volume, that we're only left with the gun mantlet area. Although in WW2 it was the most armored place on a tank, it is now one of the least armored. It's impossible to mount significant quantities of armor there. What you see on the T-14 there is about as much as you can put in that area without degrading the capabilities of the turret. On the sides you don't see much armor because this space is needed for external components, that are also external in all other tanks.
There must have been some statistical analysis that determined that widening the turret to accommodate more armor would do more harm (signature) than good. Other than autocannons, the APS should protect it from the sides.
The external modules are concealed under a thin metal shield that could be modified to act as armor, and would be easier to modify for that than making nearly permanent changes to the turret.

So the T-14 does not really fall short of any tank in the protection of its turret.
If anything, I'd be more worried about the newfound fragility of MBTs. Although crew protection only seems to increase with time, the tank's ability to operate in a truly contested environment becomes gradually degraded.

Simultaneously tanks and other AFVs are increasingly enabled by technology, i.e external modules, and the abilities and opportunities for enemies to damage those modules are also increasing. Hence the emphasis on AFV stealth and camouflage in recent years, especially in context of the next gen tanks.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The main gun is not un-protected. The turret is so stripped down of components and empty volume, that we're only left with the gun mantlet area. Although in WW2 it was the most armored place on a tank, it is now one of the least armored. It's impossible to mount significant quantities of armor there. What you see on the T-14 there is about as much as you can put in that area without degrading the capabilities of the turret. On the sides you don't see much armor because this space is needed for external components, that are also external in all other tanks.
There must have been some statistical analysis that determined that widening the turret to accommodate more armor would do more harm (signature) than good. Other than autocannons, the APS should protect it from the sides.
The external modules are concealed under a thin metal shield that could be modified to act as armor, and would be easier to modify for that than making nearly permanent changes to the turret.

So the T-14 does not really fall short of any tank in the protection of its turret.
If anything, I'd be more worried about the newfound fragility of MBTs. Although crew protection only seems to increase with time, the tank's ability to operate in a truly contested environment becomes gradually degraded.

Simultaneously tanks and other AFVs are increasingly enabled by technology, i.e external modules, and the abilities and opportunities for enemies to damage those modules are also increasing. Hence the emphasis on AFV stealth and camouflage in recent years, especially in context of the next gen tanks.
So you're confident that there isn't armor underneath the externals, around the gun? Iirc in OKR Molot the gun mechanisms themselves were armored to MBT levels. Is it possible that the T-14 retains this underneath all the extras?
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
So you're confident that there isn't armor underneath the externals, around the gun? Iirc in OKR Molot the gun mechanisms themselves were armored to MBT levels. Is it possible that the T-14 retains this underneath all the extras?
Maybe there is some armor we don't see, but modern composites are very volume-demanding and you cannot obtain any meaningful protection without substantial volume.
 
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