Russian Air Force News & Discussion

[Haavarla]

I'm not against any Su-34 production, and i do recongnize their intended role and purpose.
But other was claiming the Su-34 was too late, too slow and instead opted for Irkut Su-30SM production as it would come cheaper and with a better output rate.


The SM2 upgrade would face the problem at airframe age and flying hour of any older Su-27 and lastly time consuming alteration of the older Flanker airframe to accomondate the 117S engines, rewire for new radar/EW and retubing for ext DT.
And with that the SM2 would come as an quite expensive upgrade as well.

Would it not be better with new airframes like Su-27SM3, Su-30M2 and Su-30SM instead.
A new fighter do have more life in it eighter way and a new build Flanker are not that exspensive all things considering.. i think the real challange for VVS are to get enough new Flankers and Su-34 out at a accepteble rate for the re-armament purpose.

 

[Feanor]

The problem of being too late is identical with the SM and Su-34. IAPO didn't/doesn't have the production slots to put out adequate numbers for VVS requirements. It certainly didn't have them in 2006, when the Su-34 program started production at NAPO. Prior to that there wasn't enough funding for either Su-34 or Su-30SM. So Su-30SM production for VVS needs would either have to go to NAPO, and face the same delays as the Su-34 did (due to the poor state of NAPO at that time) or get in line at IAPO. Delivery timeframes would likely be near identical for the two. Output rates would not be better by a lot because it would share the production slots with the MKIs, at IAPO. And given that Sukhoi prefers export contracts to domestics (higher profit margins) it's likely VVS production would have faced delays, while export orders forged ahead.

As it stands the VVS plans to continue operating SMs for over a decade. That's enough operating time to justify the SM2 package. They clearly have enough money to shell out for Su-30SMs, so why not instead spend the money on upgrading existing airframes? Surely it would be more efficient, given that the VVS has dozens of Flankers sitting in storage...

The Flanker is supposed to eventually be phased out entirely by the PAK-FA, so given that the first PAK-FA will start to arrive in line units by 2016-18, Flanker purchases are a stop-gap measure, rather then a long-term re-armament.

 

[Comrade69]

im lost.

how is Su-34 too late like you guys are talking about, I thought its only intended to replace the SU-24?

 

[Haavarla]

Yes i agree.
It is a moot point really, how late the Su-34 are right now.
The long term plans for VVS re-armaments has already been laid down, and the Su-34 will 100% see another contract as the current contract draws to an end.

The Su-34 is the right and only platform to replace the Su-24M, end of story.

 

[Feanor]

im lost.

how is Su-34 too late like you guys are talking about, I thought its only intended to replace the SU-24?

The Su-34 should have entered large-scale serial production about 10 years ago, with MLUs coming out right now, and end of service dates around 2030, with a 5th gen replacement. Instead, because of the collapse of the USSR it was delayed both in development, and in deployment.

 

[Comrade69]

The Su-34 should have entered large-scale serial production about 10 years ago, with MLUs coming out right now, and end of service dates around 2030, with a 5th gen replacement. Instead, because of the collapse of the USSR it was delayed both in development, and in deployment.

I see

Im sorry for not knowing that much about this stuff, but what are MLU's?

And isn't the the SU-34 a pure strike fighter like the SU-25 and the A-10?

There really is no 5th generation in the works right now that's a pure strike support fighter, Pak-FA is air superiority is it not?

 

[gf0012-aust]

but what are MLU's?

MLU = Mid Life Upgrade

 

[Feanor]

I see

Im sorry for not knowing that much about this stuff, but what are MLU's?

And isn't the the SU-34 a pure strike fighter like the SU-25 and the A-10?

There really is no 5th generation in the works right now that's a pure strike support fighter, Pak-FA is air superiority is it not?

The PAK-FA is multi-role. There is no 5th-gen strike fighter in the works. To be honest I suspect it won't even replace all the fighters in service, as the Su-35S will be deployed with line units only a couple of years prior to the PAK-FA, making them virtually peers timeframe-wise. The same goes for the Su-30SM. MiG-31BM upgrades will continue simultaneously to the PAK-FA, so they're will definitely be around for a long time to come. The Su-34 will definitely serve along-side the PAK-FA, as will the Su-25SM. There's some question about the MiG-29, as the MiG-35 has received no orders. The MiG-29M is however in production for Syria, and the Mig-29K for India, and later will get purchased for the AVMF. The VVS already operates the MiG-29SMT.

 

[Comrade69]

The PAK-FA is multi-role. There is no 5th-gen strike fighter in the works. To be honest I suspect it won't even replace all the fighters in service, as the Su-35S will be deployed with line units only a couple of years prior to the PAK-FA, making them virtually peers timeframe-wise. The same goes for the Su-30SM. MiG-31BM upgrades will continue simultaneously to the PAK-FA, so they're will definitely be around for a long time to come. The Su-34 will definitely serve along-side the PAK-FA, as will the Su-25SM. There's some question about the MiG-29, as the MiG-35 has received no orders. The MiG-29M is however in production for Syria, and the Mig-29K for India, and later will get purchased for the AVMF. The VVS already operates the MiG-29SMT.

Is the Mig-35 even complete? In wiki it says "under development"...

And from my understanding, I thought VVS was going to retire Mig-29's soon and replace them with Mig-35's...?

 

[Feanor]

Well the original plan was for the LFI requirement to be filled by the MiG-35, but at this point it's unclear whether that will go ahead. At this point the MiG-35 should be close to state trials if they do decide to get it.

 

[Haavarla]

The problem with the Mig-35 is that it is facing harsh competition from a various Flankers from both IAPO and KnAAPO.

The newer Flankers can do everything the Mig-35 can do, but not vice versa..
And by now the Mig-35 has gained weight and range, making it much closer to Flankers and moved away from the light weight tactical fighter concept.
Even when the VVS are in a re-armament phase now, it remains to see if the Mig-35 will ever get any funding or deal from MoD.

 

[Comrade69]

Well it sounds to me like the Mig-35 can draw foreign interest from the countries that are a few years behind(ex. Middle East, Africa, South America)

but besides that does Mig have any other projects in the works...

is their 5th gen single engine fighter for real or still just an idea?

 

[Klaus]

Afaik the State Arms Programme for the timeframe until 2020 doesn't include any other 5th generation fighter. MiG was said to start developing UAVs instead of manned combat aircraft.

@Feanor: I'm not sure whether I understood your post correctly. Did you mean the VVS is already considering phasing out the Su 35 and Su 30 within one or two decades (what wouldn't be very rational to me as they are going to spend several
billion dollars on them and the 200 or so T 50 probably won't be enough to defend such a large territory)?

 

[Feanor]

No. My point is that that they're NOT phasing out a number of upgraded legacy aircraft. I also will be surprised if PAK-FA purchases really stop at ~200-300. I suspect the numbers will be closer to 400-500, once all is said and done.

 

[Klaus]

Ok, then I just misunderstood something.

I guess the total number of PAK FA to be acquired will pretty much depend
on how much money they are going to invest into other programmes such as the PAK DA and UCAVs. I'm not sure which one of them is regarded the most important, but I'm asking myself whether a long-range bomber will still be needed regarding the procurement of new submarines and ICBMs. Isn't such an aircraft rather an unneccessary and expensive toy which can never be used?

Coming back to the Flankers, how much do the systems of the upgraded Su 27 SM differ from that of the Su 35? Are they capable of carrying out the same missions as them?

 

[Feanor]

Coming back to the Flankers, how much do the systems of the upgraded Su 27 SM differ from that of the Su 35? Are they capable of carrying out the same missions as them?

They carry out the same kinds of missions, but they have severely inferior radar, EW gear, etc. They also have older and weaker engines.

 

[Haavarla]

Not to mention that Su-27SM3, Su-35S and Mig-31BM have been opted with a newer missile series.
I'm not sure if the SM can use this without a radar refit or rewire to the pylons

@Klaus
Not sure how one would measure the increased capability of any Su-35S over the Su-27SM, but below Russian sources claim the Su-27SM3 are two times more efficiently over the Legasy Su-27S.

"The Su-27SM(3) fighter aircraft has a strengthened airframe to enable takeoff weight increased by more than 3 tons and additional suspension points to accommodate weapons. The fighters are equipped with new equipment and weapons complexes as well as with the new AL-31F-M1 turbofan engines produced by the MMPP Salut, which are characterized by high thrust and extended time between overhauls.

New and upgraded equipment installed at the aircraft allows the use of new air-to-air and air-to-surface extended range missiles. The capabilities of the aircraft under intense enemy air defense counter-measures were upgraded due to the application of a new set of ECM. The integrated information system (CIS) has improved the operational and technical characteristics of the aircraft. The information-control field of the cockpit was improved. The pilots cabin has become a glass one completely with 4 multifunctional displays installed, which allowed discarding 13 dial indicators. The new communications system provides a robust secure communication with command posts and between aircraft in the air.

"The Su-27SM(3) as a multirole fighter is able to fulfill combat missions effectively using high-precision air-to-surface weapons, including satellite-guided bombs. When operating against air targets the Su-27SM(3) is nearly 2 times more efficient than its predecessor the Su-27C, while in actions against ground targets it performs more than 3 times better."

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2011...-multi-purpose-fighters-to-russian-air-force/

 

[Klaus]

Thanks for the info. I didn't know yet, that the basic Su 27 can carry air-to-ground
weapons

When will the first Su 35 enter squadron service? The last thing I heard was that the second seres production aircraft had arrived in Lipetsk to carry out various test flights.

 

[Feanor]

The basic Su-27S can carry unguided munitions. The SM upgrade makes it a real multi-role by giving it PGM capability.

If things go really well, they first squadron could get formed at the end of this year. If not, probably some time next year.

 

[Haavarla]

The Russian Air Force has completed flight tests of the modernized Sukhoi Su-25UBM ground attack-trainer aircraft, Defense Ministry spokesman Col. Vladimir Drik said on Tuesday.

Russian Air Force completes Su-25UBM flight tests | Defense | RIA Novosti

At last, the Su-25BM upgrade is moving along..


Additional history about the fate of Su-25 upgrades.

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20101125/161501297.html