Russia wants to dismantle nuclear subs by 2010

[EnigmaNZ]

"How such sub will be mission killed?"
I am no expect, but I believe 'mission killed' doesn't mean the submarine is sunk, but that it is not in a position to launch it's missiles, as that is its primary mission, and it can't carry out that mission, it is mission killed. It can't launch if there is a SSN in the area, to do so is suicide, or if travelling too fast, I think less than 5 knots.

"Large noisy target... common. Any sub what will try to follow will be exactly as noisy."
A submarines primary passive sensor is located in the bow, if the SSBN and the following SSN both are doing 15 knots, surely the noise of the reactor pumps, prop cavitation, etc will make it difficult for the SSBN to detect the SSN behind it, while the reverse is true for the SSN. I'm not a submariner, but it seems logical.

And then again - how it is easy to track SSBN under ice?
No idea, but to hazzard a guess, a SSBN has a maximum dept of say 2000, in the open it can be anywhere in that water column, hiding in thermals etc. Under thick ice, which extends mostly underwater, its ability to hide in thermals will be greatly reduced, there may not be a lot of water between the berg and the bottom. Would the ice act as a reflector of any noise emmitted from the SSBN. Now I am curious, must do a search lator.

I think our friend has read a few books, listened to a bit of propaganda, and casts himself as an expert.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I think our friend has read a few books, listened to a bit of propaganda, and casts himself as an expert.

There's a vast difference between reading about things in the public domain - and actually doing it or participating in actual processes such as sailing in or getting involved with signal management.

Submariners are probably one of the most anally retentive groups of professionals you'll find. They don't even like commenting on OSINT unless its absolutely benign info or unless they know the receiver...

 

[Firehorse]

An SSBN may have SSN escorts, and besides, it can do "crazy Ivan" turn to see if anyone is following. Also, if it's ordered to launch BMs, don't bet that the crew will think "it may be suicidal- there is SSN nearby!" It will launch them and then, if attacked & alone, will defend itself! Ask USN/RN/FN boomer sailors- or better yet, I remember seeing TV show [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Submarines-Sharks-Steel-Scott-Hicks/dp/B00000G3LF"]Submarines- Sharks of Steel[/ame], where USS Georgia (SSBN 729) commander said: "I can assure you that if I have to fight another submarine, I will win!" The same thing would say any other SSBN commander!

 

[kilo]

A crazy Ivan? You really think that will work? How would the U.S. know anything about enemy subs if they were detected every time the enemy sub did a 180?

 

[Firehorse]

Those turns are done at certain intervals; in peace time the following sub records all noizes & routines. Just being detected doesn't prevent an SSN to keep those records for later use in the fleet. I'm no submariner and never been one, but read enough non-fiction, and have talked to a few submarine sailors.
BTW, there are plenty of books to get self-educated on submarine warfare!

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

What about towed arrays boys????? That would cover the blind spot.

 

[Firehorse]

Thanks for mentioning it!

A Pelamida towed array sonar provides a very low-frequency passive search capability. The dispenser for the thin-line towed array is visible on the after fin. http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/delta/

An intersting observation:

The Chinese have brought a large number of modern antisurface and anti air systems online. So instead of relying on their SSBN systems to avoid Opfor ASW platforms they are relying on their new systems to roll back or destroy them. Ideally it would just leave the increasing number of Chinese submarines to deal with Opfor submarines (as surface and air plaforms may be out of the picture) which may just level the playing field allowing their SSBN's to deploy overcoming the above mentioned challenges to a degree. This only works in wartime but that may be the only case where the Chinese see their SSBN's being deployed forward. This also might explain why significant air and surface ASW forces are not being constructed.
http://myksandbox.blogspot.com/2007/10/chinese-ssbn-deployments.html

Russia's defense ministry announced that a naval task force consisting of the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier, the Udaloy-Class destroyers Admiral Levchenko and Admiral Chabenenko, the guided-missile cruiser Moskva and several unidentified "support vessels" will convene in the North Atlantic for "exercises" lasting "several days."
Vice Adm. Nikolai Maksimov of the Russian navy's northern fleet will lead the exercises.
The admiral is reported to have stated that the upcoming exercises are a prelude to a "permanent" presence in the region.
The Russian navy will be joined by elements of the Russian air force, namely Bear and Blackjack strategic bombers. http://www.newsmax.com/international/russian_navy/2008/01/17/65388.html

 

[AegisFC]

Those turns are done at certain intervals; in peace time the following sub records all noizes & routines. Just being detected doesn't prevent an SSN to keep those records for later use in the fleet. I'm no submariner and never been one, but read enough non-fiction, and have talked to a few submarine sailors.
BTW, there are plenty of books to get self-educated on submarine warfare!

That's what a towed array is for.

 

[Firehorse]

Russian Navy’s Commander-in-Chief Vladimir Vysotsky stated in April that the first Borey-class missile carrier will be transferred to the Navy by the end of the year.
According to Vysotsky, now about 95 percent of construction is completed at The Yury Dolgoruky. But nobody hopes that the Bulava missile will be competed during the remaining time.
However, a quantitative reduction of strategic submarines is not a temporary phenomenon connected with the substitution of overage ships. According to Vysotsky, as soon as new submarines are put into operation (there will be 13 submarines after 2010), Russian nuclear submarines will return to regions of combat patrolling. Moreover, new ships will go first of all to the Pacific Ocean, where the problem of old fleets is more serious than in the Northern Navy.
http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/05-05-2008/105068-nuclear_submarines-0

I hope the new ones will be safer! In the meantime, they may also be forced to rely on SSKs more.

 

[baranek]

Are there any recent news about a progress of scrapping decomissioned nuclear subs? Is there any website, where submarines currently being srapped are listed?

 

[EnigmaNZ]

http://www.sgpproject.org/Personal Use Only/070215canadasub.htm
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1789
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2006/russia-061128-rianovosti01.htm

Just google something like - Russian submarines scapped - or similar.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Are there any recent news about a progress of scrapping decomissioned nuclear subs? Is there any website, where submarines currently being srapped are listed?

The fleet has been going through scrapping for the last few years. even australia and new zealand have paid for the scrapping of one. IIRC, the main contributors of money have been the US, Germany, Japan and canada (aust and nz contributed under the japanese process)

There used to be a regular feed from Belarus Foundation (??) But I haven't had an alert for a few months. I used to post them regularly but it got a bit "boring" in the end.

 

[mig3535]

videos

Admin: Deleted. Read the Rules re expected posting behaviour. This is not a forum designed to promote your presence on other links.

Warning issued.

 

[SoCalSooner]

Did anyone happen to watch the TV program on National Geographics "BREAK IT DOWN"

The program covered the dismantle of a Typhoon class sub.

I was shocked at how bad the engineering 'looked', say 1930s.

I can help but feel that whole Russian BS is just a big bluff, except maybe for the Hind(sp) helos.

 

[SoCalSooner]

Did anyone see the National Geographics program "BREAK IT DOWN" where they filmed the dismantling of a Typhoon class sub?

If you go to Google Earth you can see the sub in the 'dry dock', it is actually a cement pool with a gate at one end, it is not a floating dry dock.

Look at 64 35 08 57 N, 39 49 06 53

I thought I was back in the 40's, not very cutting edge for their best sub.

The radioactive handling was BS. IMHO I think Russia is a big bluff.

 

[Feanor]

There are a lot of areas where Russian technology is indeed rather primitive or simplistic. There are also areas (though not many) where Russia is cutting edge in terms of technology. When looking at Russian weapons one has to look on a case by case basis to make the judgement call.

 

[SoCalSooner]

Your quite right on that one. The Hind helo comes to mind, except for the Stinger missle, as a good weapon. They have civilian heavy lift helos and planes that the west has used.

 

[LancasterBomber]

I largely disagree with your zero sum game approach to economics in this discussion, but I tend to agree with some of your specific points on Russia.

The US is hardly in economic plunge, if the US economic growth is a plunge, then the recent growth in Europe which is about half the rate of the US would be described as economic suicide. I reject both. Yes I am accounting for housing. Sorry, but you went a bit overboard on the hyperbole.

The US and Europe are not in decline,

Interesting.

 

[Feanor]

Just a quick update, the Typhoons are undergoing dismantling, which means that the Dmitriy Donskoy which is currently the test platform for the Bulava is likely to be the only Typhoon equipped with the new missile. Earlier there was some speculation about the rest of the Typhoons also getting converted.

 

[SkolZkiy]

Last two Typhoons Arhangelsk and SeverStal would be converted to missile carriers or for special operations.