Russia wants to dismantle nuclear subs by 2010

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qwerty223

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crobato said:
That's not really true. The last two 956EM Sovs sold to China are in fact, brand new vessels.

Still it was quite a political mess how they were built, and China itself doubted the Sovs may ever be completed. Many of the parts were built in places that are now separated Republics. The relocation of all the parts and manufacturing back to Russia had undoubtedly made the ship quite expensive for a rather modernized Cold War design. Accidents, delays, political and media circus added to the annoyance of the customer.

But nonetheless they are done and delivered. The PLAN seems generally happy about the Sovs, both the old and the new pair, which is a lot to say about it since the PLA itself has been less than happy with other Russian products before. The Sovs seem more straightforward to operate than some of the more advanced (and complicated) Chinese ship designs, and probably may have been in a shopping list once again, but that prospect of buying new Sovs is not very likely now.

Nonetheless the experience and mistakes in building these ships could provide a rally ground for the Russian ship industry to reform itself. The experience is valuable, certainly for the Russians, knowing at least they can still build ships as big as a Sov.
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Those vessels where delivered before date, and construction duration is short too.
 
harryriedl

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
crobato said:
That's not really true. The last two 956EM Sovs sold to China are in fact, brand new vessels.

Still it was quite a political mess how they were built, and China itself doubted the Sovs may ever be completed. Many of the parts were built in places that are now separated Republics. The relocation of all the parts and manufacturing back to Russia had undoubtedly made the ship quite expensive for a rather modernized Cold War design. Accidents, delays, political and media circus added to the annoyance of the customer.

But nonetheless they are done and delivered. The PLAN seems generally happy about the Sovs, both the old and the new pair, which is a lot to say about it since the PLA itself has been less than happy with other Russian products before. The Sovs seem more straightforward to operate than some of the more advanced (and complicated) Chinese ship designs, and probably may have been in a shopping list once again, but that prospect of buying new Sovs is not very likely now.

Nonetheless the experience and mistakes in building these ships could provide a rally ground for the Russian ship industry to reform itself. The experience is valuable, certainly for the Russians, knowing at least they can still build ships as big as a Sov.
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Its a huge gulf between building a Sovermany class and building new Kiev class aviation cruisers and the largest dry dock in Russia has Gorskov refitting for India.
 
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contedicavour

New Member
XaNDeR said:
You seem to not get the point , what does the fact that Udaloys and Sovermeny class are not new , have to do with russia building more ships?
And infact , Tico's and Alreigh Burkes are old ships too , i don't remember any new destroyers beeing commisioned after 90's ?
Not that it has anything to do with it :)
For your IV point : Maybe because Pak-Fa will be in 2 versions , naval and airforce?
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Nooo only about 20 new Burke DDGs have been built since the '90s ;)
The point with so many obsolescent Sovremenny and Udaloy is that if the Russian navy wants to reach the 300-ship strength soon then a lot of thenew construction will have to be used to replace 1980s vintage ships that have been very badly maintained.

cheers
 
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oxforduniversit

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Russia is an official superpower again

I am reading some of the comments about Russia here and had to reply.
Someone stating that Russia is not a Superpower is clearly wrong. There
are several US agencies that have announced Russia as a Superpower again (G8 meeting Russia 2006) and the US is no longer the sole Superpower but a leading Superpower but that will change in the future.

Washington Acknowledges Russia as Superpower
kommersant.com/page.asp?id=768929

A Former Superpower Rises Again
spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,426393,00.html
spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,druck-426393,00.html

Russia: A superpower rises again
POSTED: 1203 GMT (2003 HKT), December 13, 2006
Says Russia was always a Superpower
edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/12/12/russia.oil/index.html
 
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oxforduniversit

New Member
Russia is a Superpower because they have the economics, the wealth, the diplomatic power, ideological, technological advances than any other country besides the US; they have the cultural level of a Superpower and let’s not forget their military forces (they are leading as the world’s largest military industry supplier building ships, subs, aircrafts weapon arsenals and etc for International countries, that doesn’t mean better it just means they are supplying a huge sale of military equipment where the US has it advantages in what is sells to International countries as well, the bottom line though is Russia is selling a leading number). Also Russia has the largest nuclear arsenal of weapons which 10 times greater than the US (I learned that from a couple of retire US commanders who were based in Eastern Europe who admitted Russia’s nuclear weapon arsenal and Russian forces if anybody has a disagreement in this comment).
 
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oxforduniversit

New Member
If any of you heard the News on CoasttoCoast radio last night with George Noory, NASA is going bankrupt and does not have the funds to complete the International Space Station as Russia was suppose to complete 40% of the station as they are planning their moon space station for 2015 on top of that. They may either need to help complete the station or the station will go into limbo without the Russian’s to fix the US contract to finish it. The US Space shuttle is an outdated program that even the X-43 program went bankrupt and the US shuttle is just too expensive. A shuttle that takes a crew of 5 people to operate where the Russia space shuttle can fly unmanned and also dismantle its wings in space and attaching into the space station as a counterpart to the station. The Russians have flow more manned space missions that the numbers are impossible to beat that even the current Soyuz rocket has an 95% prefect record (has flown more than 520 missions). I just find it interesting when Russia was in the down in the 90’s but they still preformed their space missions and building nuclear arsenals but now they regained their superpower status again officially when it is expensive to improve military capability and continue space flights, how did they do it?
 
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oxforduniversit

New Member
The US is on an economic plunge as many of us can admit this, not just housing, high gas prices and bad inflation rates but our country is falling where Russia is greatly improving. You see our problems with immigrations and corporations continuing to outsource for cheaper labor overseas because the US labor is too expensive, we can’t even afford to fix our immigration problems not just the borders but the internal problems. What is unique about Russia, they don’t have an immigration problem at all, everyone who is not a Russian citizen has to have an entry visa, everyone and anything. The US is broken in so many ways it is just a complete joke.

I also wanted to state Russia is completely debt free as they cleared all their past deficits:
english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/22-08-2006/84038-paris-club-0
 
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oxforduniversit

New Member
Isn’t the US supposed to be the supreme richest superpower? I am not trying to make Russia as the greatest country on earth but understand what is going on with Russia now. It is astonishing and to see their military bases as I have seen our military bases, I am impressed with Russia’s military forces completely. They have so many military advances over there that they are just different than the US when nitpick who is better than who.

Anyway I don’t want to start any argument; just my point that Russia is a Superpower. Also the countries of Ukraine and Kazakhstan as so heavily close to Russia as allies that they are considered connected to Russia even though they are separate post Soviet countries now. It is not known if these countries will enjoin together again but it has been discussed most often as much as what China now wants from Russia. We don’t know or even Russia & China ties are together as they are so against NATO there is no answer what they will do in the future.
 
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oxforduniversit

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Also Russia is an energy super giant of the world as well.
thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?storyID=4883

Is the Space Station a Money Pit? Russia to for fill Space Station completion contract for US:
time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1632890,00.html

NASA a ticking collapse
coasttocoastam.com/shows/2007/10/09.html
 
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Gripenator

Banned Member
Energy Superpower maybe, but when alternative energy sources (ethanol, hydrogen/nuclear, diesal composites etc.) come online in the coming decades Russia's rather late economic boom will come to an end and Putin and Co. might find themselves out of a job as the revenues from the current resources boom (US$125bn/yr) simply have been spent largely on pensions, salaries for government officials and the strategic missile forces of all things (24bn-90% of the entire naval budget went into the construction of the four massively over budget Borei SSBNs!) instead of building up infrastructure and education ie. investing in the future and human capital.

This partly explains why Russia's once famed scientific reputation is declining and why Russia has overtaken Japan as the nation with the highest suicidal rate.

Which brings me to my next point-a nation's superpower status is determined by its people above all-the quality and quantity as well as force projection capabilities. Unfortunately, the current demographic trends are not in Russia's favor and as for power projection, I could almost die of laughter.

You may ask, why do I have the authority to say this?

The answer is that in the above two respects, the Sweden Empire in the
17th and 18th centuries was in exactly the same situation (discounting the suicide factor) leading to its collapse and partially explaining why we are a damn welfare state today.
 
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Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
oxforduniversit said:
The US is on an economic plunge as many of us can admit this, not just housing, high gas prices and bad inflation rates but our country is falling where Russia is greatly improving. You see our problems with immigrations and corporations continuing to outsource for cheaper labor overseas because the US labor is too expensive, we can’t even afford to fix our immigration problems not just the borders but the internal problems.
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I largely disagree with your zero sum game approach to economics in this discussion, but I tend to agree with some of your specific points on Russia.

The US is hardly in economic plunge, if the US economic growth is a plunge, then the recent growth in Europe which is about half the rate of the US would be described as economic suicide. I reject both. Yes I am accounting for housing. Sorry, but you went a bit overboard on the hyperbole.

The US and Europe are not in decline, both simply aren't on the same accellerated economic growth path of Russia or China. Both of those countries had a lot of room to grow though, China started from a very low starting position only a few decades ago, and Russia is rebuilding after falling to rock bottom following the cold war.

Russia's old military equipment is in disrepair, particularly their Navy. They managed their fall from a military perspective better than expected though, foreign contracts kept thier industrial base from disappearing and R&D was maintained thanks to foreign sales and investment. Russia maintained a decent number of modern naval platforms, but they went mostly without the updates unlike western nations.

So the approach in Russia is to do a slight modernization on equipment that is still relevant, and build new, starting with strategic submarines. A full 70% of this years and last years shipbuilding budget is being spent on SSBNs and related tech. This is a smart approach, get the expensive stuff out of the way, then they can build quantity on the cheap as revenue increases.

The problem is disposal of old. Gary is right on, they want the west to fund the messy stuff, and while the west probably shouldn't, the west probably will contribute. The problem with contributing to disposal is that western nations remove the responsibility that comes with building nuclear tech, a lesson the West needs to let Russia learn on its own since they are building new stuff that will recreate the problem in the future.
 
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Bearcat

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Russian navy on operations

I see some news agencies are reporting that the russian navy have deployed to the Med. The ships in question are the carrier Admiral Kuznetsov og two anti-submarine ships. Must be of the Udaloy class then.

These ships belong to the northern fleet and will sail along the norwegian coast, west of the UK, and in the Gib. straight.

Find it strange that a submarine is not along for the trip, or the Kirov and Slava class. The Udaloys to not have the SAM capabillity that you would expect from a CVBG.

Any thoughts on this?
 
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C

Chrom

New Member
Bearcat said:
I see some new agencies are reporting that the russian navy have deployed to the Med. The ships in question are the carrier Admiral Kuznetsov og two anti-submarine ships. Must be of the Udaloy class then.

These ships belong to the northern fleet and will sail along the norwegian coast, west of the UK, and in the Gib. straight.

Find it strange that a submarine is not along for the trip, or the Kirov and Slava class. The Udaloys to not have the SAM capabillity that you would expect from a CVBG.

Any thoughts on this?
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Pretty show, also training. Besides, Kuznezov itself have quite capable SAM's. SSN or SSBN might well follow the order without public attention...
All in all, i wouldnt take it serious and draw any conclusion. It is not military operation, just crew training.
 
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jennery587

New Member
Bearcat said:
I see some new agencies are reporting that the russian navy have deployed to the Med. The ships in question are the carrier Admiral Kuznetsov og two anti-submarine ships. Must be of the Udaloy class then.

These ships belong to the northern fleet and will sail along the norwegian coast, west of the UK, and in the Gib. straight.

Find it strange that a submarine is not along for the trip, or the Kirov and Slava class. The Udaloys to not have the SAM capabillity that you would expect from a CVBG.

Any thoughts on this?
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THEY ARE RUSSIAN NEVER TRUST THEM,:unknown YOU JUST DONT KNOW

Mod edit: Do not write in call caps, it is considered shouting and is rude. Also, when posting, post more than a single so that members understand the response, otherwise nothing is added to a discussion. Lastly, do not make negative comments about other countries or cultures, that is the playground of a bigot and is not appreciated here.
 
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Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
When you look at the details of this, it really highlights the exercise as a political gamble, apparently with big risk, but I'm assuming someone in Moscow also sees a big reward.
 
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Jon K

New Member
Galrahn said:
When you look at the details of this, it really highlights the exercise as a political gamble, apparently with big risk, but I'm assuming someone in Moscow also sees a big reward.
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I don't know enough about recent Russian Navy operations, but wouldn't it be prudent to check out capabilities for prolonged deployment in home waters before actually committing Russian Navy units for a missions which could well bring shame against very minor rewards?

I mean, what is the reward, really? Quite small European navies are able to deploy four warships somewhere for a training cruise. But of course the most important battle for Russian Navy will be the Battle over Budget fought in Kremlin...
 
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