Yes they are Mini-Typhoons. You can tell by the Rafael Toplite EO system and its tripod mounted above the bridge that provides targeting for the Mini-Typhoons.
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Padman
- Start date
Looks like they will be accepted as is, the Otago Daily times continues its good work following this issue,
http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/36914/problem-ships-not-sale
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
According to this article from last December http://www.nzherald.co.nz/defence/news/article.cfm?c_id=32&objectid=10547518
Greenie is right - NZ$90M each OPV
Also IPV's NZ$143 total or NZ$35.75M each
MRV NZ$177M
Which nicely equals NZ $500M.
Greenie is right - NZ$90M each OPV
Also IPV's NZ$143 total or NZ$35.75M each
MRV NZ$177M
Which nicely equals NZ $500M.
A very good deal, so good I think we should just keep building the IPVs at maybe 1 or 2 per year and keep them for ourselves (eg.we still have to replace Kahu one day, I think the patrol requirement was for 6 boats anyway) or on sell them as part of our foreign aid to the islands (to replace there 20 year old boats) , a great way to keep industry and technology in the country.
Yes, even after the extra expenditures to fix the ships, New Zealand did very well as far as price. Unfortunately, and we need to keep this in mind as well, the navy ended up without a ship to patrol the Southern Ocean. While the MRV will always be useful as a sea lift ship, and the OPVs can patrol elsewhere, spending a few more dollars from the start, i.e., building a larger OPV that isn't overweight should be able to patrol the Southern Ocean.
No one is complaining about the costs, we are complaining about maybe being too costs conscious. The maritime review noticed a big hole we should do something about, and the big hole still exists. New Zealand would have been better off buying another second hand Stalwart class ship from the USN despite their very slow speed and converted it to do Southern Ocean patrols. At least we would have ship which could patrol the Southern Ocean.
If plugging the two OPVs with a few meters more length will allow these ships to be useful patrolling the Southern Ocean, I am for spending the extra funds to do so.
No one is complaining about the costs, we are complaining about maybe being too costs conscious. The maritime review noticed a big hole we should do something about, and the big hole still exists. New Zealand would have been better off buying another second hand Stalwart class ship from the USN despite their very slow speed and converted it to do Southern Ocean patrols. At least we would have ship which could patrol the Southern Ocean.
If plugging the two OPVs with a few meters more length will allow these ships to be useful patrolling the Southern Ocean, I am for spending the extra funds to do so.
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recce.k1
Well-Known Member
It was stated in Govt releases at the time that the OPV hanger was based on the Anzac Frigate hanger, thus as the RAN's ANZAC's do carry Seahawks, supposedly then the OPV's could carry a navalised H-60 series helo etc.
The speculation on this and I think the RAN thread in recent years is whether the Anzac (and thus OPV) can carry Australia's and NZ's next generation helo, the MRH-90/NH-90. Both versions have folding tail booms and it appears that the unconfirmed answer is 'yes'.
The speculation on this and I think the RAN thread in recent years is whether the Anzac (and thus OPV) can carry Australia's and NZ's next generation helo, the MRH-90/NH-90. Both versions have folding tail booms and it appears that the unconfirmed answer is 'yes'.
However, its most likely the root cause for the 100 tons of overweight OPVs is probably adding the helicopter hangar to a ship design which the similar Irish ships don't have. As I have noted above, its best to choose ship designs without a lot of changes. Simply put, buy proven and tested ships.
OPV Weight issue
Extract Otago Daily Times 20/12/2008:
"The New Zealand Defence Force's new $500 million naval vessels may not be shipshape, but they will not be sold.
Defence Minister Dr Wayne Mapp confirmed this week selling the problem-dogged ships, built as part of the $500 million defence acquisition project Protector, was not an option, and any operational capability issues with the ships would just have to be "carefully managed".
"I simply cannot envisage selling them. There is a real willingness on both sides [the Government and builder] to get them into action."
The only ship of the seven in the project delivered so far is HMNZS Canterbury, which has been plagued with problems and needs another $20 million spent on it.
As a result of the issues with Canterbury, the Royal New Zealand Navy has refused to accept delivery of the remaining six vessels - the two offshore patrol vessels (OPVs) Otago and Wellington ($90 million each) and four inshore patrol vessels (total cost $143 million) - until the health and safety issues preventing them getting a warranty are appropriately fixed.
The OPVs also face a weight problem.
They are understood to be about 100 tonnes overweight, which will affect their operational capability, including their ability to sail in Antarctic waters.
Dr Mapp conceded that when the OPVs arrived, they would, like Canterbury, be operational, but with limitations.
While the weight issue would not affect the immediate deployment of the ships after acceptance, it could become problematic in the mid to long term, as weight was added to the vessels, he said.
"Normally, they can just add whatever they like to these ships, but with these ones, loads will have to be managed very carefully. There are usually [weight] margins to play with, but with these ships that margin is less."
The option of altering the ships to reduce their weight was examined and not considered possible, he said.
Instead, the Government is negotiating with the builder over contract breaches, which are believed to include the timing and weight issues. "
Looks like they will be accepted as is ,what this means is the ability to added extra weapons capability etc without the solution you propose is lost for the time being.
Extract Otago Daily Times 20/12/2008:
"The New Zealand Defence Force's new $500 million naval vessels may not be shipshape, but they will not be sold.
Defence Minister Dr Wayne Mapp confirmed this week selling the problem-dogged ships, built as part of the $500 million defence acquisition project Protector, was not an option, and any operational capability issues with the ships would just have to be "carefully managed".
"I simply cannot envisage selling them. There is a real willingness on both sides [the Government and builder] to get them into action."
The only ship of the seven in the project delivered so far is HMNZS Canterbury, which has been plagued with problems and needs another $20 million spent on it.
As a result of the issues with Canterbury, the Royal New Zealand Navy has refused to accept delivery of the remaining six vessels - the two offshore patrol vessels (OPVs) Otago and Wellington ($90 million each) and four inshore patrol vessels (total cost $143 million) - until the health and safety issues preventing them getting a warranty are appropriately fixed.
The OPVs also face a weight problem.
They are understood to be about 100 tonnes overweight, which will affect their operational capability, including their ability to sail in Antarctic waters.
Dr Mapp conceded that when the OPVs arrived, they would, like Canterbury, be operational, but with limitations.
While the weight issue would not affect the immediate deployment of the ships after acceptance, it could become problematic in the mid to long term, as weight was added to the vessels, he said.
"Normally, they can just add whatever they like to these ships, but with these ones, loads will have to be managed very carefully. There are usually [weight] margins to play with, but with these ships that margin is less."
The option of altering the ships to reduce their weight was examined and not considered possible, he said.
Instead, the Government is negotiating with the builder over contract breaches, which are believed to include the timing and weight issues. "
The chopper fitting in the hanger is not the problem ( Ive herd the S2g is going to struggle fitting in,width of the door), the dimentions of the flightdeck exclude anything much bigger than the S2Gor A109 operating within safe norms . The A109 is the logical replacement for the S2G in a few years .
The A109s might be better than the Seasprites when it comes to operating a helicopter from the OPVs.
A109 PRO's
-Carrys 7 passengers compared to 4 on a S2G
-Has smaller dimentions so it would fit into the hanger better
-Cheaper to operate
A109 Con's
-No assisted recover system
-No Search radar
S2G Pros
-Search Radar
-Has a assisted recovery system
S2G Cons
-OPV's dose not have a air weapons mag so the S2g weapon capability is wasted
-More expensive to operate
Will need to get some A109's with folding rotors not sure that the ones on order have this option, the version that the Swedes ordered for their naval requirements would be optimal (would be useful to have a search radar fitted). The 109's would certainly be cheaper to operate than the SH2G's.
They might be cheaper to operate, but do they provide the best capability. Ignoring the Australian factor, one of the reasons the SH2G was chosen over the Lynx was superior cargo lift capability.
While I can see a place for an armed naval version of the 109 on the OPV's I do not see it as a replacement for the Sprites (we might as well bring the WASP's back), the sensors the Sprites carry are just to important for operations like ET1.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
It was my understanding that the OPVs lack a magazine suitable for an armed helicopter. As such, any helicopters carried would be unarmed, apart from perhaps small arms like a 7.62mm GPMG, regardless of whether or not the helicopter in question is able to make use of weapons like lwt or Maverick AGM. If that is the case, I would think suitability would then revolve around operating costs and equipment capabilities like sensors, lift capacity and whether or not a rescue winch is fitted. This of course assumes that the helicopter can safely fit onto the OPV and into the hangar...
-Cheers
You are correct there is no fitted air weapons magazine on OPV or MRV - but the container position on the quarterdeck offers some hope for some form of weapons capability for the OPV.
The way I reading the other comments is that the 109 should replace the sprite. This ignores the fact that the navalised A109 (per the official website) has no LWT capability and is inferior in lift.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I agree that the OPV might be able to be, in a limited and/or temporary sense, upgraded in terms of armament. What I am not sure of is if arms handling for a helicopter could be safely done, even using a containerized system on the quarterdeck.
What I imagine helicopters embarked on the OPVs doing are things like the following.
1. Vertrep: max lift/cargo weight would be a factor
2. maritime search: advanced avionics, E/O systems and datalink useful here
3. SAR: like maritime search but also should have some form of rescue winch
4. Personnel transport: able to insert/extract boarding parties and/or NZSAS
I do not really see an advantage to having a significantly armed helicopter on the OPV as the OPV should never be in a position where it is either attacking or being attacked by a force or vessel where missiles or torpedoes are needed. Particularly since the OPV armament is so limited (25mm cannon, with no real room to upgrade it) as are the sensors/electronics fitout.
-Cheers