kiwipatriot69
Active Member
What of the proposed cuts to defence labour made this year?will that affect current projects, or just push future ones like the frigate replacements or HMNZS Canturbury ones further down the line?
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Padman
- Start date
The Minister of Finance wants to push back about $4 billion of the $20 billion of the DCP 2019 out past 2030 as far as he can. So we could presume that such items would be pushed back further by some in the current government if they had there way. Others in the current government would get rid of the frigates completely. I think that we will have to wait and see what their next Defence Policy Statement looks like. They seem to be avoiding a White Paper for some reason.
Possibly because they dont have the amount of control over the outcome that they require
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Wouldn't this be a complete diplomatic no go zone?
Stuart M
Well-Known Member
An interesting point, but there is no mistaking that the international situation has changed, and a document that purports anything like a 'benign strategic environment' in the name of cuts or delays will look foolish and out of touch internationally, even if it does marry up with local political wishes.
If Dame Annette Kings comments on joining the non submarine parts of AUKUS are anything to go by, its possible the White Paper is being delayed because of of a cognitive dissonance issue within government.
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Absolutely, I think NM is referring to the Green Party side-of-things? If so they makes these noises all the time but even Labour wouldn't let that happen - there is no way they want to get into a fight with Australia and with the way the wider regional "Indo-Pacific" region is heading, Labour might have to be the first party to bite the bullet (as they are in power currently) and consider a future increase in NZ naval combat forces.
(For a bit of fun ... even moving back to 3 Frigate force would be a questionable increase - it would be the equivalent of the bare minimum the Frigate force should have been if Leander Frigate Canterbury was to have been replaced as originally planned, in order to maintain basic sustainable force. So that could leave a 4 Frigate force option, which is better sustainably (but that's basically the former ANZUS status quo), OTOH a 5-6 Frigate force would get back to the post WW2/early Cold War force structure (plus 1-2 other similar capabilities), which would be ideal to sustain a deployment into the Indo-Pacific but still leave the ability to patrol local and South Pacific/Southern Ocean areas ... but maybe not all at once though ... and also contribute 1-2 vessels to escorting high value assets eg Trans-Tasman with the ADF, or when leaving/entering NZ waters to wider afar).
In WW2 the RNZN had to press into service (like most allied nations) several armed "merchant cruisers" (with 4 or 6" guns from memory) for Trans-Tasman escort support and into service "guarding" local Pacific Islands (Fiji etc). The need for NZ to contribute defence of merchant (and naval/army transport) vessels will likely be needed again should even there be a conflict in "northern Asia", around our waters and region.
Edit/Add: When WW2 broke out, NZ navy's (then the NZ division of the Royal Navy) light cruisers HMS Leander and Achilles were busy tasked with patrolling parts of the Southern Ocean looking for "enemy" raiders, possible pocket-type battleships and merchant vessels that were thought could be lurking (merchant vessels were), that were to have been seized), and on behalf of the Admiralty initially patrolled the South American west coast keeping German merchant vessels in check in port etc) (and lots of convoy escorting, eg to Australia etc). Other vessels under RN control left NZ waters for the defence of Singapore. My point, historically NZ has needed a larger maritime force than it actually had, the same would similarly apply today.
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Agreed - and for a available force of even two capable surface combatants, you’re looking at a fleet of six going by the rule of three.
I personally think the best option for the core of fleet renewal is a multirole frigate capable across the full spectrum - such as the Mogami Class and A140 etc.
"la ultima fragata" - the last frigate, returned to the Chilean navy.
My liver still hasn't recovered from my time on the Wellington - never live in the gunners mess. Wellington was one of the best.Not in Queensland but Bacchante/Wellington was my old ship, I was Ops O under John Brigstocke, later to become Second Sea Lord, Admiral Sir John…..
It was a happy and hard working ship, we won the Londonderry Trophy, best performing ASW ship in the RN!
HMS Bacchante (F69) - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
Neither has my liver... them were the days... T.K.O with beer chaser anyone...
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the clarification, didn't know that, can you name who those MP's are (or via PM etc)? Asking to work out whether to be "concerned" or not (i.e. depending on the "authority" (or as we say in NZ the "mana") of those individuals)!
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kiwipatriot69
Active Member
It doesn't make any logical sense to me, even if I were to look at it from agreen party perspective. Increased climate change is the major issue being all over the news and islands shown literally drowning now. Throw in droughts dwindling resources and civil unrest resulting in wars in our backyard of the Pacific. were simply going to need more personell, ships , vehicles and planes to deal with it.A few million extra trees and a carbon tax isn't going to stop that.
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Found a google english translation (very interesting to see what a modernised Type 23 can look like)!
Another article on the Infodefensa.com website also caught my interest, the google/english translation page is as follows, it discusses the Chilean Navy's OPV-83 "Marinero Fuentealba" operating in Antarctic waters.
El OPV-83 Marinero Fuentealba de la Armada de Chile inicia la Campaña Antártica 2021-2022
El patrullero oceánico OPV-83 Marinero Fuentealba de la Tercera Zona Naval de la Armada de Chile arribó a la base naval Arturo Prat para dar inicio a la primera comisión de la Campaña Antárt ...
www-infodefensa-com.translate.goog
The article goes on to say that OPV-83 and OPV-84 are armed with a Leonardo 76/62 Super Rapid Gun (instead of a Bofors 40mm which is the main gun on the earlier OPV-81 and OPV-82).
@MrC has mentioned previously that for the RNZN's proposed S-OPV, Antarctic conventions mean that the main armament would have to be a lower calibre gun (eg 25mm).
So why the difference between Chilean and NZ Antarctic OPV armament, is one country following conventions or has the other found a way around this issue?
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
In the before times the frigates use to do that patrol... but they were not a dedicated vessel to the area like the SOPV will be. The convection is non-binding in most respects and don't know what limits are supposedly imposed on weapons...
CJohn
Active Member
A good article by Ex RNZN commentator Andrew Watts, He talks about future maritime conflict that will be conducted in the grey zone. A reality that New Zealand cannot ignore, and it's implications for the next generation of naval capability.
defsec.net.nz
Sustained Presence: The Royal New Zealand Navy and the Grey Zone - Defsec
Future maritime conflict will be conducted in the grey zone, and it has implications for the next generation of naval capability.
defsec.net.nz
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
I see a U.S ship will be visiting wellington... hopefully no earthquake this time...
www.nzdf.mil.nz
United States Navy Ship to visit New Zealand
A United States Navy ship is due to visit New Zealand later this month, arriving in Wellington to take part in a range of activities with the New Zealand Defence Force.
www.nzdf.mil.nz
Roll out the looney lefty protestors, to whit the Auckland Peace Action Group. Actually they won't be able to get out of Auckland if the visit is before 15th December. Won't that rip their undies 
Notice that they never jump up and down protesting when a PLAN warship has been in Auckland.
It's interesting to see that this government approved such a visit. Something that I thought that they may have avoided in order to pander to their further left factions and supporters within the Labour Party.
Notice that they never jump up and down protesting when a PLAN warship has been in Auckland. It's interesting to see that this government approved such a visit. Something that I thought that they may have avoided in order to pander to their further left factions and supporters within the Labour Party.
But if they are protesting for a just cause surely they will be let outRoll out the looney lefty protestors, to whit the Auckland Peace Action Group. Actually they won't be able to get out of Auckland if the visit is before 15th December. Won't that rip their undies
It's interesting to see that this government approved such a visit. Something that I thought that they may have avoided in order to pander to their further left factions and supporters within the Labour Party.
I would like to see them try. Maybe the Greens will take up their cause with the government.But if they are protesting for a just cause surely they will be let out